On 25 Dec 2013, at 12:39, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
I am sympathetic to your defense of the search for truth. I would
differ with you, however, and probably everyone on this list, in
stating that science must have a goal. Some Transhumanists are ok
with the entire human endeavor turned over to the Machines, and this
includes Science. It may be inevitable, in fact. I disagree, and
believe that science needs to be harnessed for human betterment (I
am sure we all do) and, perhaps, diminishing what some theologians
have called, "The Human Condition." I am all for directing some of
the scientific search bent towards things that benefit our species,
in profound ways.
Everyone, on this mailing list disagrees with me and has no interest
or wanting to waste valuable time with such a pursuit. But, as the
old English children's' song goes, "The Cheese Stands alone."
Apologies, if I am coming across as limburger ;-) Joyes Noel, to
all, (Tho' tis' not my faith).
That is very honorable from you. I think that honest research of the
truth can help here, but indirectly, perhaps through examples.
I think that most human suffering due to humans is a product of moral
and altruism: hell is really paved with the good intention.
Comp has some quasi-ethic, like "don't ever do moral" (uncommunicable
of course, as it would be a moral)".
Comp might help also, in the sense that if the humans are encouraged
to listen to the machines, they will be encouraged to listen to the
humans.
Then it can help (or perturb) by making us realize how ignorant we are
in the fundamental questions. Science has simply not yet really begun,
for a computationalist.
Truth is not enough for the good, but it light be necessary.
Bruno
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 6:14 am
Subject: Re: God or not?
On 24 Dec 2013, at 17:24, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:
My iteration is simply this: How does this help our species, how
might this all change the human condition? My interruption in this
flow of rational, logical, and analytical reasoning. I am sorry if
this offends, but like Dr. Suess's Who's in Whoville, The Horton
Hears a Who, and not the Grinch one, I must rudely, ask,, how this
could help us?
Science is the search of truth, even if the truth is not helpful.
That is why science needs more courage than anything else. It is a
cure of wishful thinking a priori.
The separation of theology from science has abandoned the field to
the wishful thinking and its political exploitation by those who
want think at our place in the fundamental matter (life and death,
and health).
In that sense, coming back to modest scientific interrogative
thinking in theology, could help everybody in front of the truth,
especially if truth appears to be not as friendly as we would have
liked.
Bruno
Us, the pitiful, violent, human species. God, Mind, Consciousness,
and all that? It needs to be asked, although, yes, some efforts are
purely intellectual. I always home in, the Existential.
Sincerely,
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 11:12 am
Subject: Re: God or not?
Bruno,
No. The totality of reality must be logically consistent and
logically complete if it is computational (for which there is
overwhelming evidence) because if it wasn't it would fall apart at
the inconsistencies and pause at the incompletenesses and could not
exist. Thus since it does exist it must be logically consistent and
logically complete.
True that only direct experience is certain on the most fundamental
level, but it is also clear upon consistent examination that direct
experience is never as it seems to be in the sense that there is
clearly a deeper reality that is obscured by direct experience. If
we accept that reality is logical, which it must be to exist, then
all else follows and we can continue to discuss. Otherwise all
would be meaningless and futile which it clearly and self-evidently
is not, since if reality was not logical we could not function
within it which we do to varying degrees of competence. Therefore
our direct experience tells us that reality is a consistent logical
structure.
We can simply define what reality is = everything that exists. We
don't have to "search" for reality since it is everywhere and
cannot be escaped. What we search for is not reality, but its
structural details.
Lastly no, I do not believe in any "primitive physical reality".
Not at all. At its fundamental level reality is information running
in ontological energy which is not anything physical, it's simply
my name for the actuality and presence of existence which is
information and realness in the present moment rather than anything
physical. It is the actuality and presence of reality which
manifests as a present moment in which everything, including
ourselves, exists. It is the locus of reality which conveys actual
reality upon the computationally evolving information forms within
it. Because of its non-physical nature OE is difficult to properly
describe as Lao Tse noted about the Tao which was his take on OE.
Edgar
On Monday, December 23, 2013 1:48:40 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
All,
The question of whether God exists is meaningless without first
giving some definition of what is meant by God, of how God is
defined. Otherwise everyone is talking about different things and
nothing will go anywhere.
If you need a God there is only one possible rational definition
and that is to just define God as the universe itself. First there
is now absolute certainty that God does exist (all the interminable
meaningless arguments vanish), and second his attributes now become
the proper subject matter of science and reason rather than
ideology, faith or myth.
But most certainly the dogmas of all the organized religions are
all atavistic myths in the same category as Zeus and Odin which,
like them, should have been discarded millennia ago....
Edgar
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