Dear Bruno,

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 28 Dec 2013, at 05:27, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>
> Hi LizR and Jason,
>
>   Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism
> is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. Turing machines
> require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is cheating!
>
>
> But it exist in arithmetic. Subtracting it would be cheating. the silmple
> counting algorith generates all random finite strings (random in the strong
> Chaitin sense).
>
> Almost all numbers are random, when written in some base. And you can
> define the notion of base *in* arithmetic, so they exist in all models of
> arithmetic. We can't subtract them.
>

With respect: No! We cannot wait forever (literally) to obtain consistency
of our data bases in the face of the inability to know in advance the
arrival time of messages in the network.

  The fact that arithmetic "contains" all finite (even the random ones)
strings is an ontological claim. I have no problem with the claim. My
problem is that we cannot reason as if time does not exist when we are
trying to construct real computers.

  We have to use different ideas, for example: competition for resources!
Platonic computers do not compete for resources nor change. They are static
and fixed eternally...



>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:22 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28 December 2013 17:15, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:06 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain a
>>>> source of genuine randomness, in principle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That source, if it is within the program, would necessarily be
>>> deterministic.  If it is external to the program, then it is more properly
>>> treated as an input to the program rather than a part of the program itself.
>>>
>>> In practice, computers draw on sources of environmental noise such as
>>> delays between keystrokes, timing of the reception of network traffic, and
>>> delays in accessing data off of hard drives, etc. These steps are necessary
>>> precisely because programs cannot produce randomness on their own.
>>>
>>> I knew that - honest! :-)
>>
>> I was answering the question as posed. I believe that in practice all
>> real-world programmes are deterministic, and (more to the point) the UD is.
>>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Kindest Regards,
>
> Stephen Paul King
>
> Senior Researcher
>
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>
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-- 

Kindest Regards,

Stephen Paul King

Senior Researcher

Mobile: (864) 567-3099

stephe...@provensecure.com

 http://www.provensecure.us/


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