On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Stephen Paul King <
stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Paul King <
>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>>   I would like to know the definition of "reality" that you are using
>>> here.
>>>
>>
>> Reality I normally define as "that which exists".
>>
>
> How is it that you can have knowledge of "what which exists"?
>

I don't. I don't know what reality is, but if something exists it is an
element of reality.


> Is your mind somehow a map of "all that exists"? Even if it was, the set
> of computations that is your mind is some measure zero subset. So how is it
> that your claim stands? That which exists cannot be contingent, just as the
> primeness of 17 is not contingent. Right?
>

This is ambiguous. You might say 17's primality is contingent on the fact
that it has no positive integer factors besides 1 and 17, but I would not
say it is contingent on a mathematician knowing that, or a computer
verifying it.


>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Here is mine: *That which is incontrovertible for some collection of
>>> observers that can communicate*.
>>>
>>
>> So if there was a lone being in a universe would that being not have a
>> reality?  Is there no reality for deaf, illiterate, mutes?
>>
>
> A lone being in a universe has, by definition, no one to communicate with
> thus has no constraints on its state of being.
>

It still has a brain of its own, and perhaps physical laws that constrain
it.

What about the two hemispheres of its brain, can they be considered two
communicating observers?


> What is it? Everything. By definition. My definition does not have this
> problem.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> This definition requires interactions and thus requires some form of
>>> primitive becoming. Platonia does not change. Explain why there is an
>>> appearance of change that does not involve some reference to the natural
>>> ordering of the integers. Please.
>>>
>>
>> It's not the natural ordering of the integers, but the natural ordering
>> of each step in the states of a computation.  Though, even this does not
>> necessarily guarantee a "time-like" experience.  To experience time as we
>> do requires some memory and comparison between different states, and
>> perhaps some ignorance of future states.
>>
>
>
> What? What is the difference?
>

There is the ordering of the integers: 1, 2, 3, ...

But there is a different ordering of states (numbers) which may will differ
for different programs.


> How many ways are there to obtain a natural ordering of " each step in the
> states of a computation"?
>

There is a different one for each program.


> What is doing the mapping from that particular computation to the
> Integers?
>

The mathematical relation defining the UD, or some other program.


> Is it the integers? How? This is not an answer to my question. What
> determines the measure of change if change does not exist?
>

The presence of information and knowledge existing in a brain concerning
the difference between two or more successive states.


> If everything is "in Platonia" there is no change at all, and neither is
> any measure of what does not exist. Platonia has a Problem, Huston.
>

See the arguments with Edgar concerning presentism / eternalism in other
threads.  There is no need for change at the ultimate levels of reality, to
give rise to the experience of change within us.  Note, there is no
physical correlation of the color "pink" anywhere in our universe, it is
something that our brains manufacture.


>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Once we allow for Godel numbers, how can we still claim to use the
>>> natural order of the integers?
>>>
>>
>> I wasn't using this.
>>
>
> So what distinguishes one program from another?
>
>
It has its own memory space in the UD, its own history, and its own
counterfactuals.


>
>
>>
>>
>>>  We have already shown that a random sequence of numbers is a
>>> computation.
>>>
>>
>> When?
>>
>
> When we considered that the string that 'is' a computation can be
> encrypted by a one time pad or a randomly chosen godel numbering scheme.
> There is no unique universal Godel numbering!
>

A string is not a computation.  You may be making a similar confusion as
thinking the ASCII string "1 + 1 = 2" is identical with the computation 1 +
1 = 2. There is only one way a given Turing machine can/will interpret its
own tape, regardless of whether or not a differently configured Turing
machine could/would interpret the same tape in a different way.


>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>  Where do we find a "random sequence" in the naturally ordered string of
>>> Integers?
>>>
>>
>> It is not clear to me what you are asking.
>>
>>
> Does there exist a random string in the sequence of integers?
>

I don't think so. (at least not in any normal sense of the word random that
I would use)

Jason


>
>
>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:58 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi LizR,
>>>>>
>>>>>   This is fun! :-) We must remember that we are defining People as
>>>>> intersections of infinitely many computations. Right? Their perceptions of
>>>>> themselves as physical being having some particular set of configuration,
>>>>> for example bilateral symmetry, etc. is not really relevant to UDA. So, if
>>>>> there is a change in accessibility to data, facts, etc. Where is that
>>>>> "change" coming from".
>>>>>
>>>>>   This is my problem: We are presented with an argument that works in
>>>>> Platonia and we have no explanation as to the relation it has with the
>>>>> "real world" where things change and degrade and evolve, etc. What is
>>>>> measuring that change?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the argument is correct there is no other reality but Platonia. The
>>>> "real world" is a product of the computations in platonia.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:49 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 28 December 2013 17:46, Stephen Paul King <
>>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, but they do degrade. Consider your ability to access a '80s
>>>>>>> floppy drive's data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that's because people haven't worked out how to do it
>>>>>> perfectly. I agree digital archaeology is a real problem, but so would
>>>>>> analogue be without the relevant machines to play it back (admittedly 
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> easier to decode analogue from first principles). But that is a different
>>>>>> form of degrading. If you have a system capable of copying the data it
>>>>>> should be more or less 100% accurate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:44 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  On 28 December 2013 17:41, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King <
>>>>>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi LizR and Jason,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of
>>>>>>>>>> determinism is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. 
>>>>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>>>>> machines require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is 
>>>>>>>>>> cheating!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you misunderstand.  Computers are deterministic, but they
>>>>>>>>> often need randomness to implement things such as cryptography or
>>>>>>>>> monte-carlo simulations, etc.  Due to this need for true 
>>>>>>>>> unpredictability,
>>>>>>>>> our computers must harness environmental noise if they are to have 
>>>>>>>>> any hope
>>>>>>>>> of being unpredictable.  This is because computers cannot generate
>>>>>>>>> unpredictability on their own.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are engineered not to! This is why digital recordings don't
>>>>>>>> degrade, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stephen Paul King
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Senior Researcher
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen Paul King
>>>>>
>>>>> Senior Researcher
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>>>>
>>>>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>
>>> Stephen Paul King
>>>
>>> Senior Researcher
>>>
>>> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>>>
>>> stephe...@provensecure.com
>>>
>>>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>>>
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Kindest Regards,
>
> Stephen Paul King
>
> Senior Researcher
>
> Mobile: (864) 567-3099
>
> stephe...@provensecure.com
>
>  http://www.provensecure.us/
>
>
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