Stephen, Your argument is fine. It's standard GR. BUT for the nth time it's talking about CLOCK TIME simultaneity, rather than the present moment of p-time. It still doesn't seem to register that there is a difference even though the fact of the twins meeting with different clock times in the SAME present moment clearly demonstrates they are different.

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You can argue no inherent absolute clock time simultaneities till the cows come home and I will agree EVERY TIME. But that just ain't the p-time present moment as the twins prove over and over .... Edgar On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:13:14 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Edgar, > > I already wrote up one argument against the concept of a universal > present moment using the general covariance requirement of GR. Did you read > it? It is impossible to define a clock on an infinitesimal region of > space-time thus it is impossible to define a "present moment" in a way that > could be "universal" for observers that exist in a space-time. There are > alternatives that I have mentioned. > The non-communicability of first person information, that leads to the > concept of FPI, is another argument that may be independent. (I am not so > sure that it is truly independent, but cannot prove that the intractability > of smooth diffeomorphism computations between 4-manifolds is equivalent to > first person indeterminacy.) > If the information cannot be communicated then it also follows that > there cannot exist a single computation of the present moment information. > Your premise falls apart. There is an alternative but it requires multiple > computations (an infinite number!). Can you handle that change to your > thesis? > > Frankly, your arguments are very naive and you do not seem to grasp that > we are only responding to you because we try to be nice and receptive in > this list to the ideas of members. There does reach a point where the > discussion becomes unproductive. It has been useful for me to write > responses to you as it improves my ability to write out my reasoning. I > need the exercise. :-) > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net<javascript:> > > wrote: > > Stephen, > > What is this magical FPI that tells us in this present moment that there > is no such present moment? What's the actual supposed proof? > > Edgar > > > > On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Dear Edgar, > > > The "universality" of the first person experience of a flow of events > (what you denote as time) is addressed by Bruno's First Person > Indeterminism (FPI) concept. This universality cannot be said to allow for > a singular present moment for all observers such that they can have it in > common. It fact it argues the opposite: observers cannot share their > present moments! THus your claims fall apart > > > > On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: > > Brent, > > Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL > observer has his OWN present moment time. You are trying to extend it to a > cosmic universal time which this argument doesn't address. That's the > second argument you referenced. > > This argument demonstrates that for every INDIVIDUAL observer SR requires > that since he continually moves at c through spactime, that he MUST be at > one and only one point in time (and of course in space as well), and thus > there is a privileged present moment in which every observer ex > > ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.