2014/1/17 Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>
> Your argument is fine. It's standard GR. BUT for the nth time it's talking
> about CLOCK TIME simultaneity, rather than the present moment of p-time. It
> still doesn't seem to register that there is a difference even though the
> fact of the twins meeting with different clock times in the SAME present
They are at the same present moment *because* they are at the same
spacetime coordinates, that's the only and unique reason as to why they can
meet at that moment, there is absolutely no need of an unexistant p-time.
> moment clearly demonstrates they are different.
> You can argue no inherent absolute clock time simultaneities till the cows
> come home and I will agree EVERY TIME.
> But that just ain't the p-time present moment as the twins prove over and
> over ....
> On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:13:14 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>> Dear Edgar,
>> I already wrote up one argument against the concept of a universal
>> present moment using the general covariance requirement of GR. Did you read
>> it? It is impossible to define a clock on an infinitesimal region of
>> space-time thus it is impossible to define a "present moment" in a way that
>> could be "universal" for observers that exist in a space-time. There are
>> alternatives that I have mentioned.
>> The non-communicability of first person information, that leads to the
>> concept of FPI, is another argument that may be independent. (I am not so
>> sure that it is truly independent, but cannot prove that the intractability
>> of smooth diffeomorphism computations between 4-manifolds is equivalent to
>> first person indeterminacy.)
>> If the information cannot be communicated then it also follows that
>> there cannot exist a single computation of the present moment information.
>> Your premise falls apart. There is an alternative but it requires multiple
>> computations (an infinite number!). Can you handle that change to your
>> Frankly, your arguments are very naive and you do not seem to grasp
>> that we are only responding to you because we try to be nice and receptive
>> in this list to the ideas of members. There does reach a point where the
>> discussion becomes unproductive. It has been useful for me to write
>> responses to you as it improves my ability to write out my reasoning. I
>> need the exercise. :-)
>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>> What is this magical FPI that tells us in this present moment that there
>> is no such present moment? What's the actual supposed proof?
>> On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote:
>> Dear Edgar,
>> The "universality" of the first person experience of a flow of events
>> (what you denote as time) is addressed by Bruno's First Person
>> Indeterminism (FPI) concept. This universality cannot be said to allow for
>> a singular present moment for all observers such that they can have it in
>> common. It fact it argues the opposite: observers cannot share their
>> present moments! THus your claims fall apart
>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>> Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL
>> observer has his OWN present moment time. You are trying to extend it to a
>> cosmic universal time which this argument doesn't address. That's the
>> second argument you referenced.
>> This argument demonstrates that for every INDIVIDUAL observer SR requires
>> that since he continually moves at c through spactime, that he MUST be at
>> one and only one point in time (and of course in space as well), and thus
>> there is a privileged present moment in which every observer ex
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All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy
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