2014/1/17 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> > Stephen, > > Your argument is fine. It's standard GR. BUT for the nth time it's talking > about CLOCK TIME simultaneity, rather than the present moment of p-time. It > still doesn't seem to register that there is a difference even though the > fact of the twins meeting with different clock times in the SAME present >
They are at the same present moment *because* they are at the same spacetime coordinates, that's the only and unique reason as to why they can meet at that moment, there is absolutely no need of an unexistant p-time. Quentin > moment clearly demonstrates they are different. > > You can argue no inherent absolute clock time simultaneities till the cows > come home and I will agree EVERY TIME. > > But that just ain't the p-time present moment as the twins prove over and > over .... > > Edgar > > > > On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:13:14 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear Edgar, >> >> I already wrote up one argument against the concept of a universal >> present moment using the general covariance requirement of GR. Did you read >> it? It is impossible to define a clock on an infinitesimal region of >> space-time thus it is impossible to define a "present moment" in a way that >> could be "universal" for observers that exist in a space-time. There are >> alternatives that I have mentioned. >> The non-communicability of first person information, that leads to the >> concept of FPI, is another argument that may be independent. (I am not so >> sure that it is truly independent, but cannot prove that the intractability >> of smooth diffeomorphism computations between 4-manifolds is equivalent to >> first person indeterminacy.) >> If the information cannot be communicated then it also follows that >> there cannot exist a single computation of the present moment information. >> Your premise falls apart. There is an alternative but it requires multiple >> computations (an infinite number!). Can you handle that change to your >> thesis? >> >> Frankly, your arguments are very naive and you do not seem to grasp >> that we are only responding to you because we try to be nice and receptive >> in this list to the ideas of members. There does reach a point where the >> discussion becomes unproductive. It has been useful for me to write >> responses to you as it improves my ability to write out my reasoning. I >> need the exercise. :-) >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Stephen, >> >> What is this magical FPI that tells us in this present moment that there >> is no such present moment? What's the actual supposed proof? >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:17:31 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: >> >> Dear Edgar, >> >> >> The "universality" of the first person experience of a flow of events >> (what you denote as time) is addressed by Bruno's First Person >> Indeterminism (FPI) concept. This universality cannot be said to allow for >> a singular present moment for all observers such that they can have it in >> common. It fact it argues the opposite: observers cannot share their >> present moments! THus your claims fall apart >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Brent, >> >> Whoa, back up a little. This is the argument that proves every INDIVIDUAL >> observer has his OWN present moment time. You are trying to extend it to a >> cosmic universal time which this argument doesn't address. That's the >> second argument you referenced. >> >> This argument demonstrates that for every INDIVIDUAL observer SR requires >> that since he continually moves at c through spactime, that he MUST be at >> one and only one point in time (and of course in space as well), and thus >> there is a privileged present moment in which every observer ex >> >> ... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
