On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
> Russell,
> 
> PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will is 
> quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is 
> "irrational". 
> 
> If human actions and the actions of other biological organisms weren't 
> basically rational they couldn't function or survive in the real actual 
> world they live in....

That is not true. Read up on the concept of Machiavellian
Intelligence. A modicum of irrationality is just what it takes to get
ahead in the world, it makes one less predictable to one's competitors.

> 
> Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined by 
> their environments.
> 

Rational beings are completely determined by their
environment. Rational, by definition, means choosing the best course
of action (according to some utility). A rational being becomes
completely stuck when presented with two completely identical
preferred choices. e will continue in an endless loop analysing the
options to determine which is best. Even some people I know have trouble in
this situation, but will eventually break out of it by giving up the
analysis (ie behaving irrationally).


> The trick is to understand how quantum based indeterminacy can be amplified 
> to rationality....
> 

I don't think that is possible. Amplification to irrationality,
however, is easy to understand. Just employ chaos theory. In fact, the
brain appears to be just so structured (see Scientific American, vol
264, pp 78-85).

> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:01:26 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: 
> > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net <javascript:>> 
> > wrote: 
> > > 
> > > >  It doesn't mean anything.  There are microtubles in all cells.  So 
> > why 
> > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind.  :-) 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy! 
> > > 
> > > I thought Tegmark showed that the Penrose theory is unlikely (by some 
> > > ridiculously large factor) because the brain isn't supercooled and 
> > isolated 
> > > from influences that may cause decoherence within about 10^-25 
> > seconds... 
> > > 
> >
> > Exactly. Quantum superposition within microtubules seems an unlikely 
> > source of computational power within the brain. Quantum randomness is 
> > more likely to occur due to thermal fluctuations across the synaptic 
> > gap, and I quite agree with Edgar that it is an essential part of the 
> > only sensible conception of free will (the ability to act irrationality). 
> >
> > Not that Edgar is the first to say it, nor would I claim that title 
> > for myself :). 
> >
> > Cheers 
> >
> > -- 
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >
> > Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
> > Principal, High Performance Coders 
> > Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpc...@hpcoders.com.au<javascript:> 
> > University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  
> >
> >
> 
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Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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