On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Russell Standish <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Russell, > > > > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will > is > > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is > > "irrational". > > > > If human actions and the actions of other biological organisms weren't > > basically rational they couldn't function or survive in the real actual > > world they live in.... > > That is not true. Read up on the concept of Machiavellian > Intelligence. A modicum of irrationality is just what it takes to get > ahead in the world, it makes one less predictable to one's competitors. > But to be "effectively unpredictible", one doesn't need a truly random source, rather only a small number of bits that remain undisclosed to outsiders. Jason > > > > > Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined > by > > their environments. > > > > Rational beings are completely determined by their > environment. Rational, by definition, means choosing the best course > of action (according to some utility). A rational being becomes > completely stuck when presented with two completely identical > preferred choices. e will continue in an endless loop analysing the > options to determine which is best. Even some people I know have trouble in > this situation, but will eventually break out of it by giving up the > analysis (ie behaving irrationally). > > > > The trick is to understand how quantum based indeterminacy can be > amplified > > to rationality.... > > > > I don't think that is possible. Amplification to irrationality, > however, is easy to understand. Just employ chaos theory. In fact, the > brain appears to be just so structured (see Scientific American, vol > 264, pp 78-85). > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:01:26 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb <[email protected]<javascript:>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > It doesn't mean anything. There are microtubles in all cells. So > > > why > > > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy! > > > > > > > > I thought Tegmark showed that the Penrose theory is unlikely (by some > > > > ridiculously large factor) because the brain isn't supercooled and > > > isolated > > > > from influences that may cause decoherence within about 10^-25 > > > seconds... > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Quantum superposition within microtubules seems an unlikely > > > source of computational power within the brain. Quantum randomness is > > > more likely to occur due to thermal fluctuations across the synaptic > > > gap, and I quite agree with Edgar that it is an essential part of the > > > only sensible conception of free will (the ability to act > irrationality). > > > > > > Not that Edgar is the first to say it, nor would I claim that title > > > for myself :). > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > > Principal, High Performance Coders > > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] > <javascript:> > > > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Everything List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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