On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
> > Russell,
> >
> > PS: On second thought maybe we don't agree completely. Though free will
> is
> > quantum random based (we agree on that), it doesn't mean that it is
> > "irrational".
> >
> > If human actions and the actions of other biological organisms weren't
> > basically rational they couldn't function or survive in the real actual
> > world they live in....
>
> That is not true. Read up on the concept of Machiavellian
> Intelligence. A modicum of irrationality is just what it takes to get
> ahead in the world, it makes one less predictable to one's competitors.
>

But to be "effectively unpredictible", one doesn't need a truly random
source, rather only a small number of bits that remain undisclosed to
outsiders.

Jason



>
> >
> > Their actions aren't irrational, they just aren't completely determined
> by
> > their environments.
> >
>
> Rational beings are completely determined by their
> environment. Rational, by definition, means choosing the best course
> of action (according to some utility). A rational being becomes
> completely stuck when presented with two completely identical
> preferred choices. e will continue in an endless loop analysing the
> options to determine which is best. Even some people I know have trouble in
> this situation, but will eventually break out of it by giving up the
> analysis (ie behaving irrationally).
>
>
> > The trick is to understand how quantum based indeterminacy can be
> amplified
> > to rationality....
> >
>
> I don't think that is possible. Amplification to irrationality,
> however, is easy to understand. Just employ chaos theory. In fact, the
> brain appears to be just so structured (see Scientific American, vol
> 264, pp 78-85).
>
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:01:26 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:10:23PM +1300, LizR wrote:
> > > > On 18 January 2014 11:34, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net<javascript:>>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  It doesn't mean anything.  There are microtubles in all cells.  So
> > > why
> > > > > don't I think with my penis...oh...never mind.  :-)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Teehee. You're not the messiah, you're a very naught boy!
> > > >
> > > > I thought Tegmark showed that the Penrose theory is unlikely (by some
> > > > ridiculously large factor) because the brain isn't supercooled and
> > > isolated
> > > > from influences that may cause decoherence within about 10^-25
> > > seconds...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Exactly. Quantum superposition within microtubules seems an unlikely
> > > source of computational power within the brain. Quantum randomness is
> > > more likely to occur due to thermal fluctuations across the synaptic
> > > gap, and I quite agree with Edgar that it is an essential part of the
> > > only sensible conception of free will (the ability to act
> irrationality).
> > >
> > > Not that Edgar is the first to say it, nor would I claim that title
> > > for myself :).
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> > > Principal, High Performance Coders
> > > Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpc...@hpcoders.com.au
> <javascript:>
> > > University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Professor of Mathematics      hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> University of New South Wales          http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
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