Dear LizR, "However, there does seem to be a problem that needs explaining, concerning why there is something rather than nothing, and what breathes fire into the equations. "
Any remarks on my proposal to answer those questions? In bullet points: Pairs of Opposite Somethings emerge and die from the Nothing. This emergence is the Fire. On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:38 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 19 January 2014 16:05, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >>> On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >>> >>>> But where does it exist? X has to be conscious of a location, a >>>> physics, etc. If all this is the same as where I exist, then it is >>>> just a translation of this world into arithmetic. It's the flip side of "A >>>> perfect description of X is the same as X", i.e. "X is the perfect >>>> description of X". If every perfect description is realized somewhere in >>>> arithmetic (and I think it probably is) nothing is gained by saying we may >>>> be in arithmetic. >>>> >>>> Don't we gain less entities, making Occam a bit happier? If we can >>> get the appearance of a universe without having to actually have one, can't >>> we "retire the universe" and just stick with the >>> "appearance-of-one-with-equal-explanatory-value" ? (Not an original idea, >>> of course, I'm fairly sure Max Tegmark said something along those lines >>> regarding his mathematical universe hypothesis -- that if the maths was >>> isomorphic to the universe, why bother to assume the universe was >>> physically there?). >>> >>> >>> I'm asking why have the maths? >>> >> >> Well (putting on my AR hat) we have it because the maths is >> *necessarily* existent, while the universe isn't. >> >> >> I disagree. The maths are necessarily true, i.e. "axioms imply theorems" >> is true. But why should that imply *existence*. We know we can invent all >> kinds of maths by just changing the axioms or even changing the rules of >> inference. Sometimes people on this list post the semi-mystic opinion that >> everything=nothing, pointing to the need for discrimination. I look at >> this as saying positing everything is the same as saying nothing. >> > > Well, replacing my AR hat with a materialist one, I have to agree. And > leaving aside all hats, I really don't know if maths exists (in some sense) > or not. Sometimes it seems to make sense that it does (17 is prime!) > sometimes it doesn't (how can an abstraction exist?) > > However, there does seem to be a problem that needs explaining, concerning > why there is something rather than nothing, and what breathes fire into the > equations. This is one attempt to address that problem. I must admit I find > it very hard to imagine in what sense maths - even elementary arithmetic - > can be said to exist, but I appreciate that what appears to exist actually > seems to melt away when you look really closely, like the mirror in > "Through the Looking Glass". So matter is made of energy, or maybe of > objects which encode a few bits of information, and atoms are held together > by light, which is - what? And so on. So I am willing to contemplate the > posibility that this weird existence has an equally - or more - weird > explanation. > > But it's all very conjectural (and very strange, most of the time. Luckily > most of my friends have no idea I think about this stuff...) > >> Of course there's an answer - we can manipulate the maths - but then >>> doesn't that proves that the maths aren't the universe. They wouldn't be >>> any use as predictive and descriptive tools if they WERE the things >>> described. They are only useful because they are abstractions, i.e. they >>> leave stuff out (like existence?). >>> >> >> Well .... the maths does have that "unreasonable effectiveness" (that >> you're probably bored to death hearing about). And one reason for that >> could be because it is - in the guise of some yet-to-be-discovered TOE - >> isomorphic to the universe. >> >> Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent them. >> >> Why would that make it effective, though? After all we also invented > fairy tales, and conspiracy theories, and religion, and...) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/TBc_y2MZV5c/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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