On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:05 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > On 1/18/2014 1:09 AM, LizR wrote: > > On 18 January 2014 19:51, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: > >> On 1/17/2014 10:18 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 18 January 2014 19:12, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote: >> >>> But where does it exist? X has to be conscious of a location, a >>> physics, etc. If all this is the same as where I exist, then it is >>> just a translation of this world into arithmetic. It's the flip side of "A >>> perfect description of X is the same as X", i.e. "X is the perfect >>> description of X". If every perfect description is realized somewhere in >>> arithmetic (and I think it probably is) nothing is gained by saying we may >>> be in arithmetic. >>> >>> Don't we gain less entities, making Occam a bit happier? If we can get >> the appearance of a universe without having to actually have one, can't we >> "retire the universe" and just stick with the >> "appearance-of-one-with-equal-explanatory-value" ? (Not an original idea, >> of course, I'm fairly sure Max Tegmark said something along those lines >> regarding his mathematical universe hypothesis -- that if the maths was >> isomorphic to the universe, why bother to assume the universe was >> physically there?). >> >> >> I'm asking why have the maths? >> > > Well (putting on my AR hat) we have it because the maths is > *necessarily*existent, while the universe isn't. > > > I disagree. The maths are necessarily true, i.e. "axioms imply theorems" > is true. But why should that imply *existence*. We know we can invent all > kinds of maths by just changing the axioms or even changing the rules of > inference. Sometimes people on this list post the semi-mystic opinion that > everything=nothing, pointing to the need for discrimination. I look at > this as saying positing everything is the same as saying nothing. > Not so cotton-picking fast! Where is discussion of the proofs of said "necessarily true" maths? I could be handed a papyrus scroll covered with indecipherable chicken scratch and need to find a way to "prove" that it is a theory of Green Eggs and Ham. How do I get that proof? What about math theories whose equations are relations between ginormous prime numbers and I have to factor them to extract a proof of this or that statement in the theory? Are they necessarily true? Truth does not come from a fancy looking stamp marked QED by Professor Ultimum Mentalium. No. I am more inclined to believe Jaakko Hintikka's proofs by games idea<https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.113.4434%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&ei=0EXbUvmBAab82gXGpYGgCg&usg=AFQjCNGrbPBN8DSGZVxqMJxe8SQLus96qA&sig2=zYBfctDNKNTwV-4QfpIUWg&bvm=bv.59568121,d.b2I> . > > > >> Of course there's an answer - we can manipulate the maths - but then >> doesn't that proves that the maths aren't the universe. They wouldn't be >> any use as predictive and descriptive tools if they WERE the things >> described. They are only useful because they are abstractions, i.e. they >> leave stuff out (like existence?). >> > > Well .... the maths does have that "unreasonable effectiveness" (that > you're probably bored to death hearing about). And one reason for that > could be because it is - in the guise of some yet-to-be-discovered TOE - > isomorphic to the universe. > > > Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent them. > Yes, there is that possibility. We humans are very good at deluding and lying to ourselves and each other. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.