On 01 Feb 2014, at 21:12, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2014 2:16:43 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 01 Feb 2014, at 13:13, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2014 4:54:47 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 31 Jan 2014, at 21:39, Craig Weinberg wrote:
> Is there any instance in which a computation is employed in
which no
> program or data is input and from which no data is expected as
output?
The UD.
Isn't everything output from the UD?
No. The UD has no output. It is a non stopping program. "everything
physical and theological" appears through its intensional activity.
"Appears" = output.
"Appears to me" appears more like input to me. Output of of some
universe?
Input/output, like hardware/software are important distinction, but
yet they are relative. My output to you is your input, for example.
They are indexicals too.
Sure, but they are absolute within a given frame of reference.
That's my point.
You cannot write a program which bypasses the need for inputs and
outputs by substituting them for a different kind of function. It
goes back to what I keep saying about not being able to substitute
software for a cell phone charger or a video monitor, or the
difference between playing a sport and playing a game which
simulates a sport.
But then you are the one making an absolute difference here, which
contradicts you point above.
In fact it uses an intensional Church thesis. Not only all
universal machines can compute all computable functions, but they
can all compute them in all the possible ways to compute them. The
intensional CT can be derived from the usual extensional CT.
Universal machines computes all functions, but also in all the same
and infinitely many ways.
How do we know they compute anything unless we input their output?
Oh! It is a bit perverse to input the output, but of course that's
what we do when we combine two machines to get a new one. Like
getting a NAND gate from a NOT and a AND gates.
We can also input to a machine its own input, which is even more
perverse, and usually this leads to interesting "fixed points", many
simple iterations leads to chaos. The Mandelbrot set illustrates this.
But the point is that we don't have to feed the program at the
bottom level, if you can imagine that 17 is prime independently of
you, then arithmetic feeds all programs all by itself, independently
of you.
This is not entirely obvious, and rather tedious and long to prove
but follows from elementary computer science.
The arithmetic truth of 17 being prime doesn't do anything though.
That fact needs to be used in the context of some processing of an
input to produce an output.
So you refer to extrinsic processing, but that contradicts your
(correct) phenomenological account of sense, and that jeopardize the
possibility their primitiveness, or as David shown, you are back to
the POPJ.
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
Craig
> This would suggest that computation can only be defined as a
> meaningful product in a non-comp environment, otherwise there
would
> be no inputting and outputting, only instantaneous results
within a
> Platonic ocean of arithmetic truth.
A computation of a program without input can simulate different
programs having many inputs relative to other programs or divine
(non-
machines) things living in arithmetic
How does the program itself get to be a program without being input?
OK. Good question.
The answer is that the TOE has to choose an initial universal
system. I use arithmetic (RA).
Then all programs or number are natural inputs of the (tiny)
arithmetical truth which emulates them.
You need to understand that a tiny part of arithmetic defines all
partial computable relations. The quintessence of this is already
in Gödel 1931.
> Where do we find input and output within arithmetic though?
It is not obvious, but the sigma_1 arithmetical relation emulates
all
computations, with all sort of relative inputs.
It seems to me though, and this is why I posted this thread, that
i/o is taken for granted and has no real explanation of what it is
in mathematical terms.
It is the argument of the functions in the functional relations.
If phi_i(j) = k then RA can prove that there is a number i which
applied to j will give k, relatively to some universal u, (and this
"trivially" relatively to arithmetic).
> What makes it happen without invoking a physical or experiential
> context?
Truth. The necessary one, and the contingent one.
Does truth make things happen?
Yes. truth('p') -> p.
If "Obama is president" is true, then Obama is president.
>
> As an aside, its interesting to play with the idea of building a
> view of computation from a sensory-motive perspective. When we
use a
> computer to automate mental tasks it could be said that we are
> 'unputting' the effort that would have been required otherwise.
When
> we use a machine to emulate our own presence in our absence,
such as
> a Facebook profile, we are "onputting" ourselves in some digital
> context.
The brain does that a lot. Nature does that a lot. Ah! The natural
numbers does that I lot.
There doesn't seem to be a clear sense of what it means for
numbers to exert effort.
Of course I was speaking loosely, to avoid too much long sentences.
It is not the number which makes the effort, but the person
emulated by the number relations which makes the effort.
Think about the number relation which emulates the Milky way (by
computing the evolution of its Heisenberg matrix, with 10^1000
exact decimal, at the subplack level. Of course that is already a
toy mulit-galaxies. It owns a Craig doing the effort to read this
post, and omp prevents that you can distinguish your self from that
one. the effort are the same. (Of course with non-comp, you can
made him into a zombie).
If, as you say, truth itself makes things happen, then it would
seem that effort is an incoherent concept.
My poor car followed the schroedinger equation without effort, but
at a higher level, it tooks her a lot of effort to climb some steep
roads. Well, she died through such effort, actually.
Numbers have no reason to make other numbers do their work, as
they don't seem to have any basis to distinguish work from play.
Sigma_1 arithmetic, alias the UD, emulates all possible
interactions between all possible universal machines. All sorts of
interactions are emulated, but with different relative
probabilities, and that depends locally partially on them.
Computers will evolve in two ways: users' self extensions, like a
neo-
neo-cortex (+GSM, GPS, glasses, etc), which is a semi-delegation,
and
the total delegation (the friendly, and not friendly, AIs).
Those are ways that our use of computers will evolve. I don't see
that computers have any desire to extend themselves or to delegate
their work.
All universal machine are incomplete. Of course "desire" is a high
level feature which requires probably deep computations, but that
desire is a logical consequence of the basic frustration of any
machine when she grasps the difference between what she can
obtained, and what she can dream about.
Bruno
Craig
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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