On 13 Jun 2014, at 21:22, John Clark wrote:
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> We have agree that free will = will
If free will just means will then why stick on the "free" ?
Because we believe that "free" does not add anything, except some
emphasis on the needed existence of some degree of freedom.
> = ability to make an image of an uncertain local future (will I
drink tea or coffee?), and to make choice
Did you really think you could sneak in a word like "choice" without
me noticing? The ability to make a choice = the ability to have free
will and the ability to have free will = ability to make a choice.
And round and round we go.
>>>>We have self-indeterminacy?? I could not fail to disagree with
you less.
>>>This astonished me
>> What astonishes you?
> That you dismiss the Turing indeterminacy.
I could not fail to disagree with you less. Indeterminacy means not
known and in general there is no way to know what a Turing Machine
will do other than just watch it and see even though there is not
one ounce of randomness in it.
Well, there is uncertainty. That machine does not know in advance its
future state, and that is what I meant.
> Usually you dismiss the first person indeterminacy.
I have never in my life said that first person indeterminacy does
not exist, what I dismissed is that the discovery I sometimes don't
know what I'm going to do or see next is profound and was first made
by Bruno Marchal
WONDERFUL!
I am glad you agree now with the FPI. So you accept step 3. I am not
interested in judging if it is profound or not. I just say that it
makes theology, including physics, into a branch of elementary
arithmetic. Something you might understand if you are willing to move
on step 4 and sequel.
>> I've been on this list for several years and I've yet to find one
person who could add anything of interest to the "free will" noise,
a sound that many like to make with their mouth. There are endless
debates about if human beings have "free will" or not but both sides
of the argument quite literally don't know what they're arguing
about. It's as if geometers where debating if squares were
klogneated or unklogneated but nobody thinks to ask what klogneated
means.
> Only bad philosophers do that.
OK I won't argue the point, but that is exactly what happens
whenever the subject of free will comes up on this list.
In all forum there will always been non compatibilist people,
creattionist, etc. This does not change the fact that there is a
compatibilist theory of free-will, and that people can progress in
that topic.
And if only bad philosophers do that then, well,... I will leave it
as a exercise to the reader to form a conclusion from that fact.
Yes, and they will see that we agree, and that each time you say "free
will" is non sense, you mean that the non compatibilist theory of free-
will is non sense.
You: non compatibilist free will is non sense thus let us abandon all
notion of free will.
Me: non compatibilist free will is non sense thus let us abandon "non
compatibilism".
You do the same error than with atheism: the christian literal God is
non sense, so let us decree that all what the christian asserts on God
is false.
In logic your error is called non valid generalization.
Bruno
John K Clark
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