On 22 Jul 2014, at 20:18, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:56:26 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote:
PGC,
I am not being critical of Bruno. I just do not understand what he
is saying.
My understanding is that if comp is correct, it is both 3p and 1p
correct.
Bruno's argument to me has been that comp is not correct in 1p. When
I ask him how he (being a machine) can understand comp to be
correct, he seems to vacillate between saying that machines can
learn to be more correct and saying that he himself doesn't believe
comp is correct in some sense.
Your sum up is misleading.
I use the theory comp. I am a scientist, and so I don't even try to
argue for its truth, especially that later we get the understanding
that this is vain. If true, it is not provable. It might be refutable,
and I give a test.
No machine, nor me, can understand comp to be correct. But we can
assume it, and deduce from there. Indeed, if we deduce f, we refute
comp.
Now, the amazing point, which I prove, is that if we accept the
definition of Theaetetus of knowledge, with believability modelize by
provability (which makes sense in the idea case needed for the mind-
body problem), we get as mathematical consequence that the 1p cannot
be defined in any 3p terms by the machine itself, and the machine can
know that, both from inside 1p experience, and from reasoning in the
comp assumption.
The simple answer, in my view, is that the hypothesis is false. It's
a great hypothesis, and if we did not experience red and dizzy and
sweet then it would make perfect sense, however those experiences
have no place in a universe of arithmetic truths.
Because you limit your view of arithmetical truth to only the 3p
objects, but the objects themselves don't do that, and we can share
some definition with them and agree on that point. The soul of any
machine, is not a machine.
Comp tells us about a world of the intellect if the intellect
created the world, but that is not the world that we actually live
in, and no computer program has ever, by itself, lifted a finger,
tasted a cookie, enjoyed a moment of peace, etc.
The intellect is the Noùs ([]p, in qG*), the soul is the []p & p, and
it has no 3p description. But some 3p meta-descriptions with comp.
That is why we, the numbers, have a theology. Right at the start.
Bruno
Craig
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Richard Ruquist <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 4:35 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
Craig,
You still talk like if I pretended that computationalism is true. I
don't do that, ever.
But you *do* pretend that computationalism is false, and I am
waiting for an argument. I refuted already your basic argument,
which mainly assert that it is obvious, but this is true already for
the machine's first person point of view, and so cannot work as a
valid refutation of comp.
Bruno
Bruno, Are you saying that comp is false for the machine's 1p POV? I
find your paragraph rather confusing.
Richard
Not in some normative sense that you could be implying; as in "comp
is wrong/bad to believe for machine".
For sufficiently rich machine, from their 1p point of view, comp
entails set of 1p beliefs so sophisticated, that it would be
consistent for such machine to assert things like: "What me? A mere
machine? No way, I'm much more high level/smarter/complex than that.
Therefore comp must be false." - Which ISTM is what Craig keeps
asserting, in authoritative sense going even much further: insisting
that we believe him, without going non-comp in some 3p verifiable way.
Don't know if I grasp your understanding/question though. PGC
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