Bruno asked: *"What would you suggest in place of a democracy?"* which is exactly the wrong question. I did not promise a "better" system but claim to have the right to criticize - especially after calling it an oxymoron. (As I explained there is no concensus among *all of us (=demos) *to exercise a common power for all (=kratos) so 'democracy' is but a pius wish.) Even the two star-examples Bruno mentioned have flaws, subjugated groups, violence, wars. The heralded "4-yearly renewal" is dependent on the strength of the existing system and the activity/insight of active people to change it. I don't care if there are even worse systems to choose from. (See: the argument of Winston Churchill).
I would not mix the variety of the ongoing travesty of governance-styles with a reasoanble way of thinking (agnostically meant). I expect smarter-than-me minds to come up with a solution - if humanity is bound to survive. There is (was) a variety of trials in Nature, insects. plants, microbes, forming strong societies, even so called 'lifeless' formats can be looked at as society-patterns. And all that within our 'observatory' circle (not necessarily callable a 'right' observation). Thanks for your reply On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 07 Jan 2015, at 22:54, John Mikes wrote: > > Dear Bruno, allow me NOT to copy your post (and mine!) just picking parts > for reflections. Thanks for recognising my post. > > *"Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the long > run."* > I argued that there is no such thing as that darn 'democracy' - so how > should prohibition (and what kind of?) kill it? > > > May be you mean by democracy= "ideal working democracy". Then I can > understand it does not exist. But I defined democracy by the more modest > system in which people can vote every 4 yours. thats surely exist. I am > living in one. > > By prohibition, I meant prohibition of medication, like alcohol, or > cannabis, or heroïn, or ... > > > > > *"Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the problem."* > One of them. The bank CEO with a horrendous pay is also culprit for all > the vices called 'democracy' (in US: capitalism!). Money is a fantastic > invention. > > > It is the most efficacious way to distribute wealth and works. Without it, > I would not have been abale to do math as a job. > > Money is not a problem, but becomes once when it is based on lies. In that > case it create quickly a social cancer which can kill the democracy. > > > > > I deny the "48%" voting result just as e.g. a 50.1% - the 'voters' (the > part of the authorized populace who indeed cast a vote) are misinfomed and > gullible - a reason why MONEY (and lies?) can buy the votes (see: US > system). > > > Yes, in the UD system, there is too much financial lobbying, and that > seems to be part of the problem, although I tend to believe that the > problem has started with prohibition of alcohol (and then medication). > > > If a 'swing'-minority can make a 'majority' power that does not improve > the situation from false to true. Let me skip an analysis of a bi-national > kingdom, or an authoritarian-powered religious state. Maybe another time. > > Your exhortation about the questins of democracy sounds to me like a pius > wish-dream. Nobody (so far) could change the systems of the powerful by > reason. > > I like your bon-mot about the blood/cancer. I try to talk common sense. > > > > What would you suggest in place of a democracy? > > Bruno > > > > > John M > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 04 Jan 2015, at 22:55, John Mikes wrote: >> >> I published several times on various lists - including this one - my >> <agnostic?> stance about that >> *OXYMORON *'democracy' called so because the 'demos' (i.e. all of us) >> cannot exercise 'kratos' >> (governing power) to everyone's satisfaction in the variety we represent >> genetically, mentally, in interests and taste, lifestyle etc. etc. >> I added the *HOAX *of "majority voting" because 1. a 'majority' involves >> a suppressed minority and the 'voting' does not mean agreement, just lesser >> dissatisfaction in the expressed *L I E S of a campaign* >> to make the candidate more palatable to the voting crowd. Such lies are >> not even pretended to be kept once the candidate gets the power and it is >> pretty hard to get rid of someone with a majority voting record. >> >> I also expressed in no uncertain terms that autocratic (religious, >> communist/socialist, fascist) systems are not prone to any distinction of a >> *democratic* rule (if we condone such). >> We can add the capitalistic economical systems to that, constituting the >> rule of a minority (owners?) over a vast majority of employed (working) >> segment of the populace - which can be (mutatis mutandis) a form of slavery >> in pretentious, more humanitarian formulation. >> >> Democracy-(like) governance has never been istigated in any country. >> Lenin (the philosopher) said to establish a 'communistic' state a new-type >> MAN has to be developed with selfless benevolence to work for the >> community. Same for the elusive democracy. >> >> Such are the reasons why I call 'capitalism' dead by the 1970s and name >> the resulting system a >> >> >> Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the long run. >> >> >> >> Global-Ecoomic-Feudal format with Lords (owners) and Serfs (employees - >> working for MONEY, no matter how much). >> >> >> Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the problem. >> >> It is false to say that democracy is a tyranny of the majority. Sometimes >> democracy leads to to a tyranny of a minority. This happens when there are >> two big parties (left and right, say), and each get 48% which let a little >> party who got the remaining 4%, sometimes an alliance of the left and right >> extremist, which will be able to decide when going to the right and when >> going to the left. This has happened in Israel and in my country >> (Beligium). >> >> All argument against democracy looks to me like cells complaining about >> blood because it feeds cancer. >> >> To me, democracy is the minimal amount for having a system capable of >> oscillating between left and right, and avoid the pitfall of extremism and >> special interests. >> >> Democracies, like living organism can be get ill and even die, but >> non-democracy gives soon or later the power to the most violent and the >> liars. Politicians always lie, but in a democracy you have the right to say >> so, you might have difficulties to be eared, but you can create a party or >> just vote for a different politicians next time, when the democracy works >> enough well, of course. >> >> With democracies you can try different stupidities every four years. >> With tyrannies you can try different stupidities every four millenaries. >> >> Democracies can be improved (which is nice, even if this make them also >> capable of being perverted) >> Tyrannies are perverted at the start. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> JM >> >> On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:39 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 1/3/2015 7:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 03 Jan 2015, at 09:28, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] [ >>> mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal >>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 01, 2015 3:36 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>> >>> >>> On 31 Dec 2014, at 20:12, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* [email protected] [ >>> mailto:[email protected] >>> <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:34 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>> >>> >>> On 30 Dec 2014, at 01:38, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>> *From:* Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> >>> *To:* everything-list <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2014 10:27 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>> >>> >>The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy". There >>> is nothing external or formal that may distinguish a democracy from any >>> other regime. Since every modern state has the same elements. All of them >>> use the momenclature of the age. The word democracy is the most overused >>> world in this century togeter with "scientific". >>> >>> No word comes close to matching the overuse of the word "god" however. >>> >>> >>> Yes, ... and no. >>> >>> For the greeks "God" was just a pointer to the truth we are >>> searching, through theories and observation. It led to math and physics, + >>> inquiry about which one is more fundamental, and what might still be beyond >>> math and physics. That use of God remains in some language expression, like >>> when we say "only God knows", which means "I don't know". >>> >>> But that is how the word was used in the Hellenistic period; I was >>> referring to modern usage that has associated it with a monotheistic value >>> system. >>> >>> >>> I think monotheism is only the "personal" view of the monism of the >>> parmenides one. >>> I think that the theology of the christians and jews reflect the monism >>> of those who believe in an unifying truth. The fairy tales is a pedagogical >>> popularization, who get wrong when the religion is (too much) mixed with >>> politics. >>> >>> >>> But it necessarily is mixed with politics, it's main function is >>> political because the "unifying truths" are the cultural proscriptions >>> about behavior and values. God is the law-giver; he's the tyrant writ >>> large who sees all, judges all, and rewards and punishes all. The truths >>> of mathematics and physics and biology are of little relevance. His >>> "truths" are about procreation and war and ethics and loyalty to the tribe. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Which comes from the ONE of the greeks, mixed with the Jewish >>> legend. Well, if you forget the superstition, it has some important >>> relation. Monotheism is a reflexion of parmenides or Plotinus monism. >>> >>> Perhaps you are referring to the Jewish mystic concept of the sephiroth >>> kether (kether means crown in Hebrew) it is that which is manifest yet >>> cannot be named; the first divine emanation out of pure abstract space… >>> that is without form or definition yet which fills and animates all >>> things…. The divine spark so to speak. >>> >>> >>> I think so. >>> >>> >>> A few examples “a God fearing” man (or woman) is upstanding, >>> moral and considered (by other god-fearers at least) to be superior to >>> those who do not fear god; >>> >>> >>> But this "fearing of God" is a mystery to me. God should be good. Only >>> the devil should be feared. (between us). >>> >>> >>> Unless you are the devil. Unless you don't want to obey God's orders to >>> stone adulterers and conquer unbelievers and tithe to the priests. >>> >>> Brent >>> "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it >>> turns out that God hates all the same people you do." >>> - Anne Lamott >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
