On 09 Jan 2015, at 02:59, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno asked:
"What would you suggest in place of a democracy?"
which is exactly the wrong question.
A question is never wrong. Only answer can be wrong. (With all my
respect, of course).
I did not promise a "better" system but claim to have the right to
criticize - especially after calling it an oxymoron.
That is a democracy. It is when you have the right to criticize, and
indeed to suggest a new party. Then, I don't pretend the path will be
easy, but in a non-democracy, I suspect it will harder for you be be
listened.
(As I explained there is no concensus among all of us (=demos) to
exercise a common power for all (=kratos) so 'democracy' is but a
pius wish.)
False, we have agreed to pay taxes for sending a man to the moon, and
we did it.
In some states people have decided democratically to stop paying taxes
to pursue the pot smokers, and they did it.
Even the two star-examples Bruno mentioned have flaws, subjugated
groups, violence, wars.
The heralded "4-yearly renewal" is dependent on the strength of the
existing system and the activity/insight of active people to change
it.
I don't care if there are even worse systems to choose from. (See:
the argument of Winston Churchill).
I love Churchill on this one.
I would not mix the variety of the ongoing travesty of governance-
styles with a reasoanble way of thinking (agnostically meant). I
expect smarter-than-me minds to come up with a solution - if
humanity is bound to survive.
In politics, I believe that no one is smarter than you, and me. But we
think differently, and democracy is the most efficacious way to handle
smoothly the difference between people. Look around, democracies have
less bloody violence, internally, and with they neighbors, even when
sick.
Voting is better than living the coercion of the local "prejudices".
It quickly leads to the dictatorship of the "esprit de cloché".
I tend to think that brains are not much more than when the amoeba's
got the cable ... and the right to vote.
There is (was) a variety of trials in Nature, insects. plants,
microbes, forming strong societies, even so called 'lifeless'
formats can be looked at as society-patterns. And all that within
our 'observatory' circle (not necessarily callable a 'right'
observation).
Thanks for your reply
You are welcome!
Bruno
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 07 Jan 2015, at 22:54, John Mikes wrote:
Dear Bruno, allow me NOT to copy your post (and mine!) just picking
parts for reflections. Thanks for recognising my post.
"Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the
long run."
I argued that there is no such thing as that darn 'democracy' - so
how should prohibition (and what kind of?) kill it?
May be you mean by democracy= "ideal working democracy". Then I can
understand it does not exist. But I defined democracy by the more
modest system in which people can vote every 4 yours. thats surely
exist. I am living in one.
By prohibition, I meant prohibition of medication, like alcohol, or
cannabis, or heroïn, or ...
"Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the
problem."
One of them. The bank CEO with a horrendous pay is also culprit for
all the vices called 'democracy' (in US: capitalism!). Money is a
fantastic invention.
It is the most efficacious way to distribute wealth and works.
Without it, I would not have been abale to do math as a job.
Money is not a problem, but becomes once when it is based on lies.
In that case it create quickly a social cancer which can kill the
democracy.
I deny the "48%" voting result just as e.g. a 50.1% - the
'voters' (the part of the authorized populace who indeed cast a
vote) are misinfomed and gullible - a reason why MONEY (and lies?)
can buy the votes (see: US system).
Yes, in the UD system, there is too much financial lobbying, and
that seems to be part of the problem, although I tend to believe
that the problem has started with prohibition of alcohol (and then
medication).
If a 'swing'-minority can make a 'majority' power that does not
improve the situation from false to true. Let me skip an analysis
of a bi-national kingdom, or an authoritarian-powered religious
state. Maybe another time.
Your exhortation about the questins of democracy sounds to me like
a pius wish-dream. Nobody (so far) could change the systems of the
powerful by reason.
I like your bon-mot about the blood/cancer. I try to talk common
sense.
What would you suggest in place of a democracy?
Bruno
John M
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 04 Jan 2015, at 22:55, John Mikes wrote:
I published several times on various lists - including this one -
my <agnostic?> stance about that
OXYMORON 'democracy' called so because the 'demos' (i.e. all of
us) cannot exercise 'kratos'
(governing power) to everyone's satisfaction in the variety we
represent genetically, mentally, in interests and taste, lifestyle
etc. etc.
I added the HOAX of "majority voting" because 1. a 'majority'
involves a suppressed minority and the 'voting' does not mean
agreement, just lesser dissatisfaction in the expressed L I E S
of a campaign
to make the candidate more palatable to the voting crowd. Such
lies are not even pretended to be kept once the candidate gets the
power and it is pretty hard to get rid of someone with a majority
voting record.
I also expressed in no uncertain terms that autocratic (religious,
communist/socialist, fascist) systems are not prone to any
distinction of a democratic rule (if we condone such).
We can add the capitalistic economical systems to that,
constituting the rule of a minority (owners?) over a vast majority
of employed (working) segment of the populace - which can be
(mutatis mutandis) a form of slavery in pretentious, more
humanitarian formulation.
Democracy-(like) governance has never been istigated in any
country. Lenin (the philosopher) said to establish a 'communistic'
state a new-type MAN has to be developed with selfless benevolence
to work for the community. Same for the elusive democracy.
Such are the reasons why I call 'capitalism' dead by the 1970s and
name the resulting system a
Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the long
run.
Global-Ecoomic-Feudal format with Lords (owners) and Serfs
(employees - working for MONEY, no matter how much).
Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the problem.
It is false to say that democracy is a tyranny of the majority.
Sometimes democracy leads to to a tyranny of a minority. This
happens when there are two big parties (left and right, say), and
each get 48% which let a little party who got the remaining 4%,
sometimes an alliance of the left and right extremist, which will
be able to decide when going to the right and when going to the
left. This has happened in Israel and in my country (Beligium).
All argument against democracy looks to me like cells complaining
about blood because it feeds cancer.
To me, democracy is the minimal amount for having a system capable
of oscillating between left and right, and avoid the pitfall of
extremism and special interests.
Democracies, like living organism can be get ill and even die, but
non-democracy gives soon or later the power to the most violent and
the liars. Politicians always lie, but in a democracy you have the
right to say so, you might have difficulties to be eared, but you
can create a party or just vote for a different politicians next
time, when the democracy works enough well, of course.
With democracies you can try different stupidities every four years.
With tyrannies you can try different stupidities every four
millenaries.
Democracies can be improved (which is nice, even if this make them
also capable of being perverted)
Tyrannies are perverted at the start.
Bruno
JM
On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:39 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 1/3/2015 7:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 03 Jan 2015, at 09:28, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
wrote:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 3:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Democracy
On 31 Dec 2014, at 20:12, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
List wrote:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Democracy
On 30 Dec 2014, at 01:38, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
List wrote:
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Democracy
>>The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy".
There is nothing external or formal that may distinguish a
democracy from any other regime. Since every modern state has
the same elements. All of them use the momenclature of the age.
The word democracy is the most overused world in this century
togeter with "scientific".
No word comes close to matching the overuse of the word "god"
however.
Yes, ... and no.
For the greeks "God" was just a pointer to the truth we are
searching, through theories and observation. It led to math and
physics, + inquiry about which one is more fundamental, and what
might still be beyond math and physics. That use of God remains
in some language expression, like when we say "only God knows",
which means "I don't know".
But that is how the word was used in the Hellenistic period; I
was referring to modern usage that has associated it with a
monotheistic value system.
I think monotheism is only the "personal" view of the monism of
the parmenides one.
I think that the theology of the christians and jews reflect the
monism of those who believe in an unifying truth. The fairy tales
is a pedagogical popularization, who get wrong when the religion
is (too much) mixed with politics.
But it necessarily is mixed with politics, it's main function is
political because the "unifying truths" are the cultural
proscriptions about behavior and values. God is the law-giver;
he's the tyrant writ large who sees all, judges all, and rewards
and punishes all. The truths of mathematics and physics and
biology are of little relevance. His "truths" are about
procreation and war and ethics and loyalty to the tribe.
>>Which comes from the ONE of the greeks, mixed with the Jewish
legend. Well, if you forget the superstition, it has some
important relation. Monotheism is a reflexion of parmenides or
Plotinus monism.
Perhaps you are referring to the Jewish mystic concept of the
sephiroth kether (kether means crown in Hebrew) it is that which
is manifest yet cannot be named; the
first divine emanation out of pure abstract space… that is
without form or definition yet which fills and animates all
things…. The divine spark so to speak.
I think so.
A few examples “a God fearing” man (or woman) is upstanding,
moral and considered (by other god-fearers at least) to be
superior to those who do not fear god;
But this "fearing of God" is a mystery to me. God should be good.
Only the devil should be feared. (between us).
Unless you are the devil. Unless you don't want to obey God's
orders to stone adulterers and conquer unbelievers and tithe to
the priests.
Brent
"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when
it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
- Anne Lamott
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