(an example for a WRONG question: when the judge orders the defendant to answer only YES?/NO - he apologetically asked permission to ask a QUESTION from the judge. "Granted". "Tell me, did you stop cheating on your wife? Just YES/NO!!")
*So you volunteered for the role of being smarter-than-me. - Accepted. * YET you still mix the present screwed-up societal criminalogy (= the ongoing ORDERs - ha ha) with the reasonable thinking about something N E W as I tried to propose. One suggestion: ASK THE NEIGHBORS!. I mentioned some time ago V.I.Lenin's (not the dictator: the philosopher!) condition for establishing HIS (ideal?) communist world: the deveopment of a new type 'communist' MAN, who selflessly works for the community and helps the weaker for not more than he needs to survive. Or something similar in wording. May I repeat a side-remark I made: capitalism is a 'newer' format of the slave-society using more developed whips than the Assyrs. I lived and 'voted' (forced!) under semi- and real Nazis, so called Commis and American (US) 'democracy' over my *conscious* ~85 years, so I have personal factual experience about the suggestions I receive. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2015, at 02:59, John Mikes wrote: > > Bruno asked: > *"What would you suggest in place of a democracy?"* > which is exactly the wrong question. > > > > A question is never wrong. Only answer can be wrong. (With all my respect, > of course). > > > > > I did not promise a "better" system but claim to have the right to > criticize - especially after calling it an oxymoron. > > > That is a democracy. It is when you have the right to criticize, and > indeed to suggest a new party. Then, I don't pretend the path will be easy, > but in a non-democracy, I suspect it will harder for you be be listened. > > > > > > > > (As I explained there is no concensus among *all of us (=demos) *to > exercise a common power for all (=kratos) so 'democracy' is but a pius > wish.) > > > > False, we have agreed to pay taxes for sending a man to the moon, and we > did it. > > In some states people have decided democratically to stop paying taxes to > pursue the pot smokers, and they did it. > > > > > Even the two star-examples Bruno mentioned have flaws, subjugated groups, > violence, wars. > The heralded "4-yearly renewal" is dependent on the strength of the > existing system and the activity/insight of active people to change it. > I don't care if there are even worse systems to choose from. (See: the > argument of Winston Churchill). > > > I love Churchill on this one. > > > > I would not mix the variety of the ongoing travesty of governance-styles > with a reasoanble way of thinking (agnostically meant). I expect > smarter-than-me minds to come up with a solution - if humanity is bound to > survive. > > > In politics, I believe that no one is smarter than you, and me. But we > think differently, and democracy is the most efficacious way to handle > smoothly the difference between people. Look around, democracies have less > bloody violence, internally, and with they neighbors, even when sick. > > Voting is better than living the coercion of the local "prejudices". It > quickly leads to the dictatorship of the "esprit de cloché". > > I tend to think that brains are not much more than when the amoeba's got > the cable ... and the right to vote. > > > > There is (was) a variety of trials in Nature, insects. plants, microbes, > forming strong societies, even so called 'lifeless' formats can be looked > at as society-patterns. And all that within our 'observatory' circle (not > necessarily callable a 'right' observation). > > Thanks for your reply > > > You are welcome! > > Bruno > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 07 Jan 2015, at 22:54, John Mikes wrote: >> >> Dear Bruno, allow me NOT to copy your post (and mine!) just picking parts >> for reflections. Thanks for recognising my post. >> >> *"Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the long >> run."* >> I argued that there is no such thing as that darn 'democracy' - so how >> should prohibition (and what kind of?) kill it? >> >> >> May be you mean by democracy= "ideal working democracy". Then I can >> understand it does not exist. But I defined democracy by the more modest >> system in which people can vote every 4 yours. thats surely exist. I am >> living in one. >> >> By prohibition, I meant prohibition of medication, like alcohol, or >> cannabis, or heroïn, or ... >> >> >> >> >> *"Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the problem."* >> One of them. The bank CEO with a horrendous pay is also culprit for all >> the vices called 'democracy' (in US: capitalism!). Money is a fantastic >> invention. >> >> >> It is the most efficacious way to distribute wealth and works. Without >> it, I would not have been abale to do math as a job. >> >> Money is not a problem, but becomes once when it is based on lies. In >> that case it create quickly a social cancer which can kill the democracy. >> >> >> >> >> I deny the "48%" voting result just as e.g. a 50.1% - the 'voters' (the >> part of the authorized populace who indeed cast a vote) are misinfomed and >> gullible - a reason why MONEY (and lies?) can buy the votes (see: US >> system). >> >> >> Yes, in the UD system, there is too much financial lobbying, and that >> seems to be part of the problem, although I tend to believe that the >> problem has started with prohibition of alcohol (and then medication). >> >> >> If a 'swing'-minority can make a 'majority' power that does not improve >> the situation from false to true. Let me skip an analysis of a bi-national >> kingdom, or an authoritarian-powered religious state. Maybe another time. >> >> Your exhortation about the questins of democracy sounds to me like a pius >> wish-dream. Nobody (so far) could change the systems of the powerful by >> reason. >> >> I like your bon-mot about the blood/cancer. I try to talk common sense. >> >> >> >> What would you suggest in place of a democracy? >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> John M >> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 04 Jan 2015, at 22:55, John Mikes wrote: >>> >>> I published several times on various lists - including this one - my >>> <agnostic?> stance about that >>> *OXYMORON *'democracy' called so because the 'demos' (i.e. all of us) >>> cannot exercise 'kratos' >>> (governing power) to everyone's satisfaction in the variety we represent >>> genetically, mentally, in interests and taste, lifestyle etc. etc. >>> I added the *HOAX *of "majority voting" because 1. a 'majority' >>> involves a suppressed minority and the 'voting' does not mean agreement, >>> just lesser dissatisfaction in the expressed *L I E S of a campaign* >>> to make the candidate more palatable to the voting crowd. Such lies are >>> not even pretended to be kept once the candidate gets the power and it is >>> pretty hard to get rid of someone with a majority voting record. >>> >>> I also expressed in no uncertain terms that autocratic (religious, >>> communist/socialist, fascist) systems are not prone to any distinction of a >>> *democratic* rule (if we condone such). >>> We can add the capitalistic economical systems to that, constituting the >>> rule of a minority (owners?) over a vast majority of employed (working) >>> segment of the populace - which can be (mutatis mutandis) a form of slavery >>> in pretentious, more humanitarian formulation. >>> >>> Democracy-(like) governance has never been istigated in any country. >>> Lenin (the philosopher) said to establish a 'communistic' state a new-type >>> MAN has to be developed with selfless benevolence to work for the >>> community. Same for the elusive democracy. >>> >>> Such are the reasons why I call 'capitalism' dead by the 1970s and name >>> the resulting system a >>> >>> >>> Prohibition is enough to kill capitalism, and democracy in the long run. >>> >>> >>> >>> Global-Ecoomic-Feudal format with Lords (owners) and Serfs (employees - >>> working for MONEY, no matter how much). >>> >>> >>> Working more and more, for less and less money, that is the problem. >>> >>> It is false to say that democracy is a tyranny of the majority. >>> Sometimes democracy leads to to a tyranny of a minority. This happens when >>> there are two big parties (left and right, say), and each get 48% which let >>> a little party who got the remaining 4%, sometimes an alliance of the left >>> and right extremist, which will be able to decide when going to the right >>> and when going to the left. This has happened in Israel and in my country >>> (Beligium). >>> >>> All argument against democracy looks to me like cells complaining about >>> blood because it feeds cancer. >>> >>> To me, democracy is the minimal amount for having a system capable of >>> oscillating between left and right, and avoid the pitfall of extremism and >>> special interests. >>> >>> Democracies, like living organism can be get ill and even die, but >>> non-democracy gives soon or later the power to the most violent and the >>> liars. Politicians always lie, but in a democracy you have the right to say >>> so, you might have difficulties to be eared, but you can create a party or >>> just vote for a different politicians next time, when the democracy works >>> enough well, of course. >>> >>> With democracies you can try different stupidities every four years. >>> With tyrannies you can try different stupidities every four millenaries. >>> >>> Democracies can be improved (which is nice, even if this make them also >>> capable of being perverted) >>> Tyrannies are perverted at the start. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> JM >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:39 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 1/3/2015 7:47 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 03 Jan 2015, at 09:28, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* [email protected] [ >>>> mailto:[email protected] >>>> <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 01, 2015 3:36 AM >>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31 Dec 2014, at 20:12, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* [email protected] [ >>>> mailto:[email protected] >>>> <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Bruno Marchal >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 30, 2014 5:34 AM >>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>>> >>>> >>>> On 30 Dec 2014, at 01:38, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >>>> *From:* Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> >>>> *To:* everything-list <[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2014 10:27 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: Democracy >>>> >>>> >>The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy". There >>>> is nothing external or formal that may distinguish a democracy from any >>>> other regime. Since every modern state has the same elements. All of them >>>> use the momenclature of the age. The word democracy is the most overused >>>> world in this century togeter with "scientific". >>>> >>>> No word comes close to matching the overuse of the word "god" >>>> however. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, ... and no. >>>> >>>> For the greeks "God" was just a pointer to the truth we are >>>> searching, through theories and observation. It led to math and physics, + >>>> inquiry about which one is more fundamental, and what might still be beyond >>>> math and physics. That use of God remains in some language expression, like >>>> when we say "only God knows", which means "I don't know". >>>> >>>> But that is how the word was used in the Hellenistic period; I was >>>> referring to modern usage that has associated it with a monotheistic value >>>> system. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think monotheism is only the "personal" view of the monism of the >>>> parmenides one. >>>> I think that the theology of the christians and jews reflect the monism >>>> of those who believe in an unifying truth. The fairy tales is a pedagogical >>>> popularization, who get wrong when the religion is (too much) mixed with >>>> politics. >>>> >>>> >>>> But it necessarily is mixed with politics, it's main function is >>>> political because the "unifying truths" are the cultural proscriptions >>>> about behavior and values. God is the law-giver; he's the tyrant writ >>>> large who sees all, judges all, and rewards and punishes all. The truths >>>> of mathematics and physics and biology are of little relevance. His >>>> "truths" are about procreation and war and ethics and loyalty to the tribe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>Which comes from the ONE of the greeks, mixed with the Jewish >>>> legend. Well, if you forget the superstition, it has some important >>>> relation. Monotheism is a reflexion of parmenides or Plotinus monism. >>>> >>>> Perhaps you are referring to the Jewish mystic concept of the sephiroth >>>> kether (kether means crown in Hebrew) it is that which is manifest yet >>>> cannot be named; the first divine emanation out of pure abstract space… >>>> that is without form or definition yet which fills and animates all >>>> things…. The divine spark so to speak. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think so. >>>> >>>> >>>> A few examples “a God fearing” man (or woman) is upstanding, >>>> moral and considered (by other god-fearers at least) to be superior to >>>> those who do not fear god; >>>> >>>> >>>> But this "fearing of God" is a mystery to me. God should be good. >>>> Only the devil should be feared. (between us). >>>> >>>> >>>> Unless you are the devil. Unless you don't want to obey God's orders >>>> to stone adulterers and conquer unbelievers and tithe to the priests. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it >>>> turns out that God hates all the same people you do." >>>> - Anne Lamott >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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