On 11 Feb 2015, at 19:48, LizR wrote:
On 12 February 2015 at 04:46, Jason Resch <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:15 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11 February 2015 at 20:57, Jason Resch <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:44 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11 February 2015 at 18:29, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
On 2/10/2015 5:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 5:57 PM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
I call this the Cyberman (or Mr Spock) problem. The Cybermen in
Doctor Who are logical and unemotional, yet they wish to convert
the rest of the world to be like them. Why? Without emotion they
have no reason to do that, or anything else. (Likewise Mr Spock,
except as we know he only repressed his emotions.)
I'm not sure whether emotions are necessary to have goals. Then
again, perhaps they are.
The 'big' emotions like fear, rage, lust probably aren't, but
values, feelings that this is preferred to that, are.
I don't see how one could have an opinion on whether one should do
anything without emotions being involved.
So do you believe the Mars Rover is motivated to explore by its
emotions?
I don't believe it is motivated at all, in the sense that a
conscious being is.
Then couldn't the cybermen be like the Mars Rover? or vice-versa,
could a Mars Rover be programmed with the goal of the cybermen yet
not have emotions?
No I think the cybermen are intended to be conscious, and emotions
are what evolved to make conscious beings do stuff that was
necessary to their survival. The cybes act as though they are
motivated by certain emotions (as does Mr Spock). They wish to make
everyone else like them - why? Because that is the logical thing to
do, perhaps. But why do they care enough to actually do it?
The Mars Rover does what it does because of the particular pattern
of instructions stored in its CPU, I assume.
Of course comp says there's no difference. I wonder what Bruno
thinks about emotions? Since you're effectively espousing comp here,
assumig Bruno's right on that I may be wrong on this.
Emotion provides an efficacious way to retrieve self-satisfaction, by
bypassing reason, which would be too much slow.
We are "programmed" (by evolution, perhaps) to dislike anything
threatening our satisfaction. That is why a burn is painful, and a
good meal is pleasant. So we are driving by good and bad. We tend to
get the good, and to be away from the bad. That are the basic emotion
at the heart of all our behaviors. Now, we have evolved into very
complex relationships with nature and with ourselves, and the emotions
can become complex and conflictual, notably with conflicts between
shorterm goal (I want the pleasure of smoking a cigarette) and
longterm goal (I don't want to die from a painful disease related to
the cigarette).
If Mars Rover has enough self-reference, a conflict between different
subgoal can happen, like I want to go there quickly, but I hesitate to
take the shorter path as it is near a dangerous crevasse. In such
case, it might behave (at least) like it has emotions: hesitation,
failed attempts in quick succession, etc.
Emotions are daughter of the qualia of pain and pleasure, related to
self-satisfaction and survival. You will put your hand oout of the
fire more quickly than after reasoning that it could harm you, but
with a lesson well memorized, like : fire hurts, not do that again, ...
Bruno
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