On 13 Feb 2015, at 04:01, meekerdb wrote:
On 2/12/2015 2:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Feb 2015, at 05:59, meekerdb wrote:
On 2/11/2015 10:48 AM, LizR wrote:
On 12 February 2015 at 04:46, Jason Resch <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:15 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11 February 2015 at 20:57, Jason Resch <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:44 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11 February 2015 at 18:29, meekerdb <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 2/10/2015 5:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 5:57 PM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:
I call this the Cyberman (or Mr Spock) problem. The Cybermen in
Doctor Who are logical and unemotional, yet they wish to convert
the rest of the world to be like them. Why? Without emotion they
have no reason to do that, or anything else. (Likewise Mr Spock,
except as we know he only repressed his emotions.)
I'm not sure whether emotions are necessary to have goals. Then
again, perhaps they are.
The 'big' emotions like fear, rage, lust probably aren't, but
values, feelings that this is preferred to that, are.
I don't see how one could have an opinion on whether one should
do anything without emotions being involved.
So do you believe the Mars Rover is motivated to explore by its
emotions?
I don't believe it is motivated at all, in the sense that a
conscious being is.
Then couldn't the cybermen be like the Mars Rover? or vice-versa,
could a Mars Rover be programmed with the goal of the cybermen
yet not have emotions?
No I think the cybermen are intended to be conscious, and
emotions are what evolved to make conscious beings do stuff that
was necessary to their survival.
Do you think that consciousness is necessary for emotion?
Certainly snails and insects react to things in their environment
in order to enhance their survival. Is that emotion? I think it
is, but maybe it's just a question of semantics? Are they
conscious or merely aware?
I would have said: "are there self-conscious or merely conscious".
Without consciousness, there is no pain/pleasure.
To get emotion, you might need self-consciousness, at least to have
emotion that you can express as such.
I think asking for expression in language is to anthropocentric.
Mammals all express fear by producing adrenalin and increasing heart
rate.
They show that they have fear, with adrenaline. But they are wired to
makes sound, like barking, to communicate that fear, or the danger
around, to other animals.
I don't think they need language. Of course I'd say mammals are
self-conscious.
I think we agree.
But what about amoeba; they also react bio-chemically to gradients
in the water. Why isn't that and expression of emotion.
When you look for some time to protozoans, you tend to attribute them
emotions. Paramecia can panic when meeting some of its predators, they
have their mood, etc. A protozoan has only one cell, but that cell
contains the components of muscles, brain, liver, digestive cells, etc.
So they have emotion, and consciousness, I would say. Not sure about
self-consciousness, and amoeba rarely wrote autobiographies or things
like that. But I might be wrong, and they might be Löbian, with, then,
some amount of self-consciousness and induction power. I have just no
evidence for this. I do have it for jumping spider, cuttlefishes, and
most mammals, and PA.
Yet I don't think amoeba are self-conscious. In my terms I'd say
they are aware, but not conscious.
To avoid ambiguities, I use synonymously aware and conscious, and self-
aware and self-conscious.
Yes. Amoeba are conscious, but very plausibly not self-conscious.
Amoeba is like RA, or the UD.
Mammals and higher invertebrates are plausibly (for me, today) like PA
and the humans. What distinguish mainly the humans from the other
higher mammals is not much its brain than its hands and its vocal
chords.
Bruno
Brent
Brent
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