On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 12:19 AM, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>> >> >>> >>> But they're not Helsinki man anymore. >>> >>> >> >> >> Yes they are >> >> provided "the Helsinki man" is defined as somebody who remembers being >> T >> erren Suydam >> in Helsinki, and that's the definition we'd use if instead of using a >> copying machine you'd just gotten on a jet and flown from Helsinki to >> Moscow. So it seems like a reasonable definition to me and I see no need to >> change it just because the means of transportation has changed. >> > > > > We have to differentiate them because they were duplicated... to refer to > that as mere "transportation" is weaselly. > Weaselly my ass! If I put you under anesthesia in Helsinki and then put you on a jet and woke you up in Moscow it would be subjectively identical to using a duplicating chamber. > > > You're the one who objects to ambiguity in the referent so it's rather > strange for you to insist on calling the duplicates Helsinki man. > Where is the ambiguity? The Helsinki Man has been DUPLICATED so of course there are now 2 Helsinki Men because that's what the word "duplicated" means. When they open their respective doors on their respective cities they will both retain all the characteristics of the Helsinki Man but they will gain additional characteristics, and because the two cities are different the additional characteristics will be different. > > > They both *were *Helsinki Man and now one is Moscow Man and one is > Washington Man. > If the Helsinki Man isn't the man who remembers being Terren Suydam in Helsinki yesterday then who is the Helsinki Man? If you're not the man who remembers being Terren Suydam yesterday then who the hell are you? > > > > One sees one thing, the other sees the other. > Yes, one remembers Moscow and one remembers Washington so they must diverge, but their memories of Helsinki are unaffected and remain identical so they both have a equal right to call themselves The Helsinki Man. > > > You've acknowledged several times on this thread alone that the > consciousnesses diverge and are different. > Yes, they've diverged from each other but not from the Helsinki Man. > >> >> NO! They diverged from each other but they did NOT diverge from the >> Helsinki Man, they both remember being the Helsinki man as strongly as >> ever, but neither the Moscow nor Washington man remembers being the other. >> Both are the Helsinki Man but neither is the other >> > > > > You've spent the last few months bashing Bruno for his use of ambiguous > pronouns, but now you're doing your damndest to avoid referring to the > various persons in the one way that makes things crystal clear. > It is crystal clear that The Moscow Man means the Helsinki Man who is now seeing Moscow and the Washington Man means the Helsinki Man who is now seeing Moscow. Is it the fact that there are now 2 Helsinki Men that makes you say it's ambiguous? Well you tell me, if the Helsinki Man has been duplicated do you believe there still only one Helsinki Man? Are you using some new meaning for the word "duplicated"? Logical self contradiction is even worse than ambiguity. > > > > You keep insisting that personal identity is so important to this > experiment, but it's not. What *is *important is continuity of > consciousness. > Consciousness is always continuous, except at birth and death, because nobody can remember not remembering. Anesthesia does not cause a discontinuity in consciousness, subjectively it causes the external universe to make a discontinuous jump, and subjectivity is far more important than objectivity. Or at least I think so. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
