Dear Samya, I am sorry to tell you but you are infected by a thought virus. I hope you are cured from it eventually.
You state that the Quran is the ultimate source of truth. Many people claim, and have claimed, throughout the ages, that X is the ultimate source of truth. You are claiming that all of these people are wrong, but you are right. Why? I see two possibilities: a) [I suspect you will start here...] Because the Quran says so. The problem is that there are many other sources that make that claim for themselves. Why believe the Quran and not these other sources? b) [...and then you will escape here] Because you *know inside you* that the Quran is the truth. Ok, I have no argument to make against that, but I don't feel that way. Trying to convince me to feel such things like you is insane. I have my own life and experiences. My own sources of transcendence. I respect yours, please respect mine, anything else is insanity and leads to the horrors that we all know about. I think you are a very polite and well-meaning person, and I am sorry that you are stuck in this mental loop. I hope you manage to get out of it soon. Best, Telmo. On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 21 Apr 2016, at 00:15, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Samya, >>> >>> I already told you that Soufism is, in Islam, and from the theological >>> point of view, the closer to the machine's theology, which is not >>> astonishing given that they are closer to Neoplatonism too (and I have >>> explained that the mathematical theology of the universal machine is close >>> to Neoplatonism, and also to the Neopythagoreanism of the earlier >>> centuries). >>> >>> I have discovered the Alevi Bektashi sects since, and they confirmed my >>> feeling, not only with respect to the theological science, but also with >>> respect to practice and their openness to other religion (which *is* a sign >>> of genuine faith in the machine's faith). >>> >>> Do you know them? >>> >> >> I didn't know about this sect, but just read it up on Wikipedia. There >> are several sects in Islam, as in all other religions. Though I disagree >> with their beliefs, I will not comment upon it or criticise it, as I am >> held back by these verses of the Quran: >> >> Indeed, those who divide their religion and become sects, you are not >> with them in anything. Only their affair (is) with Allah, then He will >> inform them of what they used to do. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/159/ >> >> And hold firmly to (the) rope (of) Allah all together and (do) not be >> divided. And remember (the) Favor (of) Allah on you when you were enemies >> then He made friendship between your hearts then you became by His Favor >> brothers. And you were on (the) brink (of) pit of the Fire then He saved >> you from it. Thus Allah makes clear for you His Verses so that you may (be) >> guided. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/103/ >> >> >>> >>> I realise also that Ataturk made a big mistake. Wanting to eliminate the >>> weight of religion in Turkey, he persecuted them and installed the Sunni >>> instead, which are rarely open to other religion and can often use the >>> "argument" of force (as we can see today in some countries, alas). >>> >>> >>> http://www.islamicpluralism.org/2340/the-bektashi-alevi-continuum-from-the-balkans-to >>> >>> On the french wikipedia, they assert also that the veil is not >>> obligatory, >>> >> >> I agree that the veil is not obligatory. It is not even ordained to >> ordinary Muslims in the Quran. The veil or partition was ordained upon the >> believers as regards to the Prophet's wives in Chapter 33: >> >> O you who believe! (Do) not enter (the) houses (of) the Prophet except >> when permission is given to you for a meal, without awaiting its >> preparation. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, >> then disperse and not seeking to remain for a conversation. Indeed, that >> was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of (dismissing) you. But Allah is >> not shy of the truth. *And when you ask them (for) anything then ask >> them from behind a screen. That (is) purer for your hearts and their >> hearts.* And not is for you that you trouble (the) Messenger (of) Allah >> and not that you should marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that is >> near Allah an enormity. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/53/ >> >> Consider the above in the light of these verses which precede verse 53 in >> the same chapter: >> >> The Prophet (is) closer to the believers than their own selves, and his >> wives (are) their mothers. And possessors (of) relationships, some of them >> (are) closer to another in (the) Decree (of) Allah than the believers and >> the emigrants, except that you do to your friends a kindness. That is in >> the Book written. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/6/ >> >> O wives (of) the Prophet! You are not like anyone among the women. If you >> fear (Allah), then (do) not be soft in speech, lest should be moved with he >> who, in his heart (is) a disease, but say a word appropriate. And stay in >> your houses and (do) not display yourselves (as was the) display (of the >> times of) ignorance the former. And establish the prayer and give zakah and >> obey Allah and His Messenger. Only Allah wishes to remove from you the >> impurity, (O) People (of) the House! And to purify you (with thorough) >> purification. And remember what is recited in your houses of (the) Verses >> (of) Allah and the wisdom. Indeed, Allah is All-Subtle, All-Aware. Indeed, >> the Muslim men and the Muslimen, and the believing men and the believing >> women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and the truthful men >> and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the >> humble men and the humble women, and the men who give charity and the women >> who give charity and the men who fast and the women who fast, and the men >> who guard their chastity and the women who guard (it), and the men who >> remember Allah much and the women who remember Allah has prepared for them >> forgiveness and a reward great. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/32/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/33/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/34/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/35/ >> >> Relevant to the veil is also the issue of Head Cover. Someone on another >> list raised a question about head cover a while back. This is how I >> understand it: http://islam-qna.blogspot.com/2016/01/head-cover.html >> >> >> >>> and that the bektashi woman can marry without any problem a man with >>> another religion. The woman bektashi prays together with the man, which is >>> nice, but also religiously serious if I can say. Woman are treated like >>> man. They are egalitarian, and have often fight against the use of >>> authority in religion and politics. Nor do they pray in the direction of >>> the Mecca. >>> >> >> Regarding prayer and direction, we can sometimes pray together or >> segregated at the Grand Mosque at Mecca, as the situation may be. In many >> other mosques, separate arrangements are made for men and women, while in >> some local/small mosques, there is only prayer area for men, while women >> pray at home. >> >> Quran, Chapter 2, verses 142 onwards mention the Qibla, and the following >> verse orders and explains it thus: >> *And from wherever you start forth [so] turn your face (in the) direction >> (of) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam. And wherever that you (all) are [so] turn your >> faces (in) its direction*, *so that not will be for the people against >> you any argument* except those who wronged among them; so (do) not fear >> them, but fear Me. And that I complete My favor upon you [and] so that you >> may (be) guided. As We sent among you a Messenger from you (who) recites to >> you Our verses and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and >> teaches you what not you were knowing. So remember Me, I will remember you >> and be grateful to Me and (do) not (be) ungrateful to Me. O you who >> believe[d]! Seek help through patience and the prayer. Indeed, Allah (is) >> with the patient ones. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/150/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/152/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/153/ >> >> The turning towards Qibla in Mecca is simply following the order for >> unity, and not an act of piety, as clarified by the following verse: >> It is not [the] righteousness that you turn your faces towards the east >> and the west, [and] but the righteous[ness] (is he) who believes in Allah >> and the Day [the] Last, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Prophets, and >> gives the wealth in spite of his love (for it) (to) the near relatives, and >> the orphans, and the needy, and (of) the wayfarer, and those who ask, and >> in freeing the necks (slaves) and (who) establish the prayer, and give the >> zakah, and those who fulfill their covenant when they make it; and those >> who are in [the] suffering and [the] hardship, and (the) time (of) [the] >> stress. Those (are) the ones who are true and those, [they] (are) the >> righteous. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/177/ >> >> >> >>> >>> The Alevi (alone) people have originally claim that their religion is >>> anterior to Islam, despite close to Shi'ism after the influence of >>> Muhammad and Ali (Muhammad's nephew and sun in law). There are obvious link >>> with Zoroastrism (the "mother" of the abrahamic religion). >>> >>> I find them very interesting. The main point closer to machine's >>> theology, is that they have a non literal, mystic interpretation of the >>> Quran, >>> >> >> Suppose >> (i) someone receives a legal notice, and does not read it literally: >> would that be an intelligent or sensible thing to do? >> (ii) someone is entering into a contract with someone, and does not read >> the agreement literally: will this ignorance of the contract hold as an >> excuse if things do not go well and they eventually have to go to court? >> (iii) you write a paper or an email, and the recipients do not read it >> literally, even though they have a high regard for you and your knowledge, >> but choose to instead only keep it? suppose you wrote important information >> and vital instructions in it, not following which would cause the reader >> terrible loss, then would the recipients not be terribly unjust to >> themselves by not attempting to study, understand and follow it? >> >> What proof is there that the mystic non-literal interpretations are >> correct, and which one? >> >> Why would God send a non-literal text when God created all languages and >> can clearly express and instruct in any language? I believe that the Quran >> is a guidance for all believers*, so that they have the opportunity in this >> life to do good deeds accordingly and prove themselves worthy of God's >> forgiveness, and thus be purified** and granted inheritance of the Gardens >> of Eden. >> >> As the Quran itself states: >> *Only you (can) warn (him) who follows the Reminder and fears the Most >> Gracious in the unseen*. So give him glad tidings of forgiveness and a >> reward noble. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/11/ >> >> And not We taught him [the] poetry, and not it is befitting for him. *Not >> it (is) except a Reminder and a Quran clear, To warn (him) who is alive and >> may be proved true the Word against the disbelievers*. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/69/ ; >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/70/ >> >> Say, "What thing (is) greatest (as) a testimony?" Say, "Allah (is) >> Witness between me and between you, and has been revealed to me *this >> [the] Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches*. Do you >> truly testify that with Allah (there are) gods other?" Say, "I (do) not >> testify." Say, "Only He (is) One God, and indeed, I am free of what you >> associate (with Him) >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/19/ >> >> The Quran claims repeatedly that it is explained in detail: >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/explained-in-detail.html >> >> >> *believers: God knows who is a believer in the only true God, and who is >> a hypocrite, and who is a polytheist, and who is a disbeliever. I think >> these terminologies used in the Quran are independent of the religious >> titles we are born with or profess. Thus, the Quran exhorts: >> And remind, for indeed, the reminder benefits the believers. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/51/55/ >> >> **purified: I understand the purification to be that our software is >> restored to its pristine original perfect condition, as I've discussed in >> my Mission of the Messengers blogposts, about how the Adam's genome got >> corrupted, and we have inherited it: >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/11/mission-of-messengers-iii.html >> >> >> >> >> I will take a look at some of those links, but the reason why I think we >> should not interpret literally the sacred text is that the "divine >> experience" is not communicable as such. It can inspire legal texts, but I >> take democracy as a human progress, and I prefer people voting the laws, >> than making them relying on the divine, because too many people could abuse >> them. In invoking the divine in the terrestrial affair, we automatically >> make an argument from authority, which cannot be valid. >> >> An official religion is sometimes a sect which has succeeded. The Quran >> says that we should not divide islam or religion, but that is exactly the >> spirit of the backteshi people: they manage to see what is common in all >> religion and build from that. officials and sectarian people points on the >> difference, which most of the time are details, which can be useful in some >> context, but should not be taken as literal truth. Today many muslims fight >> against each other: it is because of details, which strictly speaking have >> nothing to do with the divine message, and all to do with terrestrial >> power. It the literalism which prevents to see the truth behind the means >> of its expression, and that truth is available to any creature which looks >> inward. It is a personal undertaking, where it is better to not let anyone >> standing between you and the "glass of Milk" (to not given It a name). >> > > According to the Quran, the most beautiful names denoting perfection > belong to Allah, and we are encouraged to address Allah with those names: > > And for Allah (are) the names - the most beautiful, so invoke Him by them. > And leave those who deviate concerning His names. They will be recompensed > for what they used to do. > http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/180/ > > Allah - (there is) no god except Him. To Him (belong) the Names, the Most > Beautiful. > http://islamawakened.com/quran/20/8/ > > He (is) Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner. For Him (are) the > names the beautiful. Glorifies Him whatever (is) in the heavens and the > earth. And He (is) the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. > http://islamawakened.com/quran/59/24/ > > List, translation and recitation of the 99 names of Allah mentioned in the > Quran > http://www.searchtruth.com/Allah/99Names.php > > >> >> There is no intermediate between a person and the ultimate truth. I have >> the feeling that literalism makes the prophet(s) into a sort of >> intermediate, but this might already be a blasphem, at least in the >> "correct religion" of the honest introspectibe being (machine or more >> general). >> > > There is no intercessor between a worshipper and Allah. Quran strictly > refutes the concept of intermediates. We pray directly to Allah. > > And warn with it those who fear that they will be gathered to their Lord, > not for them other than Him any protector and not any intercessor, so that > they may (become) righteous. > http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/51/ > > A list of ten verses refuting intercessor: > http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=intercessor&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all > > > The Scripture is revealed indirectly because: > And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him > unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a > messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise. > http://islamawakened.com/quran/42/51/ Translator: Pickthall > > > >> We have already discussed this. I gave only the Bektashi Alevi Muslim >> branch as a nice example of people calling themselves Muslim and which are >> very close to the mathematical theology of the ideally correct machines. >> For the Sufi, that point was not so clear (especially concerning some >> modern sects). >> >> To expand ourself in the galaxy, we need the mechanist machine theology >> (many machine will be non mechanist too, as the machine soul cannot believe >> she is a machine). We must be open that God's creatures can be very >> different on different planets and galaxies. Again a case where literalism >> can divide instead of uniting. I think. >> > > Why? We already believe in the unseen, for example the existence of jinns > made from fire (energy lifeforms perhaps?) > > Samiya > > > >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> Samiya >> >> >> >> >>> which is directly reflected in their spiritual flexibility and openness >>> to *apparently different* faith. They understand that sacred texts are >>> parabola to help the attempt to the personal experience of the divine, >>> which is very often discouraged if not forbidden once a religion is >>> institutionalized. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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