Thank you Telmo for your kind words. Appreciate it! You ask 'please respect mine' - I do not know what your faith and beliefs are, and if I have unknowingly shown any disrespect, I apologise to you for it and pray to Allah for forgiveness.
I do not ask anyone to believe the Quran to be among the divinely revealed scriptures because of my faith in it. Rather, I attempt to show that it is a factually accurate text (http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/ ) and thus must be taken seriously! This email list has been pondering, discussing and debating machine theology, the mind-body problem, 1P, 3P, and so on. You understand the relationship between the software and the hardware. Who then can better appreciate the scriptures when they speak of the WORD preceding everything, that is, the CODE which generated the entire creation and everyone and everything in it?! Who then can better understand that it is the COMMAND which effects changes in the PROGRAM, and the COMMAND is generated by the PROGRAMMER (God)?! Who then knows that even what appears RANDOM is generated by CODE?! Who then can better relate to the concepts of NAFS (1P) and OBSERVERS & WITNESSES (3P)?! Who then can better realise that if a CODE was originally conceived and has been WRITTEN, then repeating the CODE to RECREATE it is far easier?! And, especially, who then can better understand that tampering with the PERFECT CODE only corrupts it?! *Quran 30:30* <http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/30/30/> So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] *the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people*. *No change should there be in the creation of Allah* . *That is the correct religion*, but most of the people do not know. And who better to realise that a PROGRAM is WRITTEN and EXECUTED for a PURPOSE?! *Quran 42:51 <http://islamawakened.com/quran/42/51/> *And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise. And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. [Q42:52 <http://islamawakened.com/quran/42/52/>] Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path, [Q42:53 <http://islamawakened.com/quran/42/53/>] The path of Allah, unto Whom belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Do not all things reach Allah at last? [Translator: Pickthall] *Quran 27:82 <http://quran.com/27/82>* warns us that: ‘And when the word is fulfilled concerning them, We shall bring forth a *beast* of the earth to speak unto them because mankind had not faith in Our revelations.’ With advances in computing and genetic engineering, we are fast approaching the foretold terrible outcome of tampering with creation. Please think about it. Samiya On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 12:13 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote: > Dear Samya, > > I am sorry to tell you but you are infected by a thought virus. I hope you > are cured from it eventually. > > You state that the Quran is the ultimate source of truth. Many people > claim, and have claimed, throughout the ages, that X is the ultimate source > of truth. You are claiming that all of these people are wrong, but you are > right. Why? > > I see two possibilities: > > a) [I suspect you will start here...] Because the Quran says so. The > problem is that there are many other sources that make that claim for > themselves. Why believe the Quran and not these other sources? > > b) [...and then you will escape here] Because you *know inside you* that > the Quran is the truth. Ok, I have no argument to make against that, but I > don't feel that way. Trying to convince me to feel such things like you is > insane. I have my own life and experiences. My own sources of > transcendence. I respect yours, please respect mine, anything else is > insanity and leads to the horrors that we all know about. > > I think you are a very polite and well-meaning person, and I am sorry that > you are stuck in this mental loop. I hope you manage to get out of it soon. > > Best, > Telmo. > > On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 21 Apr 2016, at 00:15, Samiya Illias wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Samya, >>>> >>>> I already told you that Soufism is, in Islam, and from the theological >>>> point of view, the closer to the machine's theology, which is not >>>> astonishing given that they are closer to Neoplatonism too (and I have >>>> explained that the mathematical theology of the universal machine is close >>>> to Neoplatonism, and also to the Neopythagoreanism of the earlier >>>> centuries). >>>> >>>> I have discovered the Alevi Bektashi sects since, and they confirmed my >>>> feeling, not only with respect to the theological science, but also with >>>> respect to practice and their openness to other religion (which *is* a sign >>>> of genuine faith in the machine's faith). >>>> >>>> Do you know them? >>>> >>> >>> I didn't know about this sect, but just read it up on Wikipedia. There >>> are several sects in Islam, as in all other religions. Though I disagree >>> with their beliefs, I will not comment upon it or criticise it, as I am >>> held back by these verses of the Quran: >>> >>> Indeed, those who divide their religion and become sects, you are not >>> with them in anything. Only their affair (is) with Allah, then He will >>> inform them of what they used to do. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/159/ >>> >>> And hold firmly to (the) rope (of) Allah all together and (do) not be >>> divided. And remember (the) Favor (of) Allah on you when you were enemies >>> then He made friendship between your hearts then you became by His Favor >>> brothers. And you were on (the) brink (of) pit of the Fire then He saved >>> you from it. Thus Allah makes clear for you His Verses so that you may (be) >>> guided. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/103/ >>> >>> >>>> >>>> I realise also that Ataturk made a big mistake. Wanting to eliminate >>>> the weight of religion in Turkey, he persecuted them and installed the >>>> Sunni instead, which are rarely open to other religion and can often use >>>> the "argument" of force (as we can see today in some countries, alas). >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.islamicpluralism.org/2340/the-bektashi-alevi-continuum-from-the-balkans-to >>>> >>>> On the french wikipedia, they assert also that the veil is not >>>> obligatory, >>>> >>> >>> I agree that the veil is not obligatory. It is not even ordained to >>> ordinary Muslims in the Quran. The veil or partition was ordained upon the >>> believers as regards to the Prophet's wives in Chapter 33: >>> >>> O you who believe! (Do) not enter (the) houses (of) the Prophet except >>> when permission is given to you for a meal, without awaiting its >>> preparation. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, >>> then disperse and not seeking to remain for a conversation. Indeed, that >>> was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of (dismissing) you. But Allah is >>> not shy of the truth. *And when you ask them (for) anything then ask >>> them from behind a screen. That (is) purer for your hearts and their >>> hearts.* And not is for you that you trouble (the) Messenger (of) Allah >>> and not that you should marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that is >>> near Allah an enormity. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/53/ >>> >>> Consider the above in the light of these verses which precede verse 53 >>> in the same chapter: >>> >>> The Prophet (is) closer to the believers than their own selves, and his >>> wives (are) their mothers. And possessors (of) relationships, some of them >>> (are) closer to another in (the) Decree (of) Allah than the believers and >>> the emigrants, except that you do to your friends a kindness. That is in >>> the Book written. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/6/ >>> >>> O wives (of) the Prophet! You are not like anyone among the women. If >>> you fear (Allah), then (do) not be soft in speech, lest should be moved >>> with he who, in his heart (is) a disease, but say a word appropriate. And >>> stay in your houses and (do) not display yourselves (as was the) display >>> (of the times of) ignorance the former. And establish the prayer and give >>> zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Only Allah wishes to remove from >>> you the impurity, (O) People (of) the House! And to purify you (with >>> thorough) purification. And remember what is recited in your houses of >>> (the) Verses (of) Allah and the wisdom. Indeed, Allah is All-Subtle, >>> All-Aware. Indeed, the Muslim men and the Muslimen, and the believing men >>> and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient women, and >>> the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the >>> patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the men who >>> give charity and the women who give charity and the men who fast and the >>> women who fast, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who >>> guard (it), and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember >>> Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a reward great. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/32/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/33/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/34/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/35/ >>> >>> Relevant to the veil is also the issue of Head Cover. Someone on another >>> list raised a question about head cover a while back. This is how I >>> understand it: http://islam-qna.blogspot.com/2016/01/head-cover.html >>> >>> >>> >>>> and that the bektashi woman can marry without any problem a man with >>>> another religion. The woman bektashi prays together with the man, which is >>>> nice, but also religiously serious if I can say. Woman are treated like >>>> man. They are egalitarian, and have often fight against the use of >>>> authority in religion and politics. Nor do they pray in the direction of >>>> the Mecca. >>>> >>> >>> Regarding prayer and direction, we can sometimes pray together or >>> segregated at the Grand Mosque at Mecca, as the situation may be. In many >>> other mosques, separate arrangements are made for men and women, while in >>> some local/small mosques, there is only prayer area for men, while women >>> pray at home. >>> >>> Quran, Chapter 2, verses 142 onwards mention the Qibla, and the >>> following verse orders and explains it thus: >>> *And from wherever you start forth [so] turn your face (in the) >>> direction (of) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam. And wherever that you (all) are [so] >>> turn your faces (in) its direction*, *so that not will be for the >>> people against you any argument* except those who wronged among them; >>> so (do) not fear them, but fear Me. And that I complete My favor upon you >>> [and] so that you may (be) guided. As We sent among you a Messenger from >>> you (who) recites to you Our verses and purifies you and teaches you the >>> Book and the wisdom and teaches you what not you were knowing. So remember >>> Me, I will remember you and be grateful to Me and (do) not (be) ungrateful >>> to Me. O you who believe[d]! Seek help through patience and the prayer. >>> Indeed, Allah (is) with the patient ones. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/150/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/152/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/153/ >>> >>> The turning towards Qibla in Mecca is simply following the order for >>> unity, and not an act of piety, as clarified by the following verse: >>> It is not [the] righteousness that you turn your faces towards the east >>> and the west, [and] but the righteous[ness] (is he) who believes in Allah >>> and the Day [the] Last, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Prophets, and >>> gives the wealth in spite of his love (for it) (to) the near relatives, and >>> the orphans, and the needy, and (of) the wayfarer, and those who ask, and >>> in freeing the necks (slaves) and (who) establish the prayer, and give the >>> zakah, and those who fulfill their covenant when they make it; and those >>> who are in [the] suffering and [the] hardship, and (the) time (of) [the] >>> stress. Those (are) the ones who are true and those, [they] (are) the >>> righteous. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/177/ >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The Alevi (alone) people have originally claim that their religion is >>>> anterior to Islam, despite close to Shi'ism after the influence of >>>> Muhammad and Ali (Muhammad's nephew and sun in law). There are obvious link >>>> with Zoroastrism (the "mother" of the abrahamic religion). >>>> >>>> I find them very interesting. The main point closer to machine's >>>> theology, is that they have a non literal, mystic interpretation of the >>>> Quran, >>>> >>> >>> Suppose >>> (i) someone receives a legal notice, and does not read it literally: >>> would that be an intelligent or sensible thing to do? >>> (ii) someone is entering into a contract with someone, and does not read >>> the agreement literally: will this ignorance of the contract hold as an >>> excuse if things do not go well and they eventually have to go to court? >>> (iii) you write a paper or an email, and the recipients do not read it >>> literally, even though they have a high regard for you and your knowledge, >>> but choose to instead only keep it? suppose you wrote important information >>> and vital instructions in it, not following which would cause the reader >>> terrible loss, then would the recipients not be terribly unjust to >>> themselves by not attempting to study, understand and follow it? >>> >>> What proof is there that the mystic non-literal interpretations are >>> correct, and which one? >>> >>> Why would God send a non-literal text when God created all languages and >>> can clearly express and instruct in any language? I believe that the Quran >>> is a guidance for all believers*, so that they have the opportunity in this >>> life to do good deeds accordingly and prove themselves worthy of God's >>> forgiveness, and thus be purified** and granted inheritance of the Gardens >>> of Eden. >>> >>> As the Quran itself states: >>> *Only you (can) warn (him) who follows the Reminder and fears the Most >>> Gracious in the unseen*. So give him glad tidings of forgiveness and a >>> reward noble. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/11/ >>> >>> And not We taught him [the] poetry, and not it is befitting for him. *Not >>> it (is) except a Reminder and a Quran clear, To warn (him) who is alive and >>> may be proved true the Word against the disbelievers*. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/69/ ; >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/70/ >>> >>> Say, "What thing (is) greatest (as) a testimony?" Say, "Allah (is) >>> Witness between me and between you, and has been revealed to me *this >>> [the] Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches*. Do you >>> truly testify that with Allah (there are) gods other?" Say, "I (do) not >>> testify." Say, "Only He (is) One God, and indeed, I am free of what you >>> associate (with Him) >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/19/ >>> >>> The Quran claims repeatedly that it is explained in detail: >>> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/explained-in-detail.html >>> >>> >>> *believers: God knows who is a believer in the only true God, and who is >>> a hypocrite, and who is a polytheist, and who is a disbeliever. I think >>> these terminologies used in the Quran are independent of the religious >>> titles we are born with or profess. Thus, the Quran exhorts: >>> And remind, for indeed, the reminder benefits the believers. >>> http://islamawakened.com/quran/51/55/ >>> >>> **purified: I understand the purification to be that our software is >>> restored to its pristine original perfect condition, as I've discussed in >>> my Mission of the Messengers blogposts, about how the Adam's genome got >>> corrupted, and we have inherited it: >>> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/11/mission-of-messengers-iii.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I will take a look at some of those links, but the reason why I think we >>> should not interpret literally the sacred text is that the "divine >>> experience" is not communicable as such. It can inspire legal texts, but I >>> take democracy as a human progress, and I prefer people voting the laws, >>> than making them relying on the divine, because too many people could abuse >>> them. In invoking the divine in the terrestrial affair, we automatically >>> make an argument from authority, which cannot be valid. >>> >>> An official religion is sometimes a sect which has succeeded. The Quran >>> says that we should not divide islam or religion, but that is exactly the >>> spirit of the backteshi people: they manage to see what is common in all >>> religion and build from that. officials and sectarian people points on the >>> difference, which most of the time are details, which can be useful in some >>> context, but should not be taken as literal truth. Today many muslims fight >>> against each other: it is because of details, which strictly speaking have >>> nothing to do with the divine message, and all to do with terrestrial >>> power. It the literalism which prevents to see the truth behind the means >>> of its expression, and that truth is available to any creature which looks >>> inward. It is a personal undertaking, where it is better to not let anyone >>> standing between you and the "glass of Milk" (to not given It a name). >>> >> >> According to the Quran, the most beautiful names denoting perfection >> belong to Allah, and we are encouraged to address Allah with those names: >> >> And for Allah (are) the names - the most beautiful, so invoke Him by >> them. And leave those who deviate concerning His names. They will be >> recompensed for what they used to do. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/180/ >> >> Allah - (there is) no god except Him. To Him (belong) the Names, the Most >> Beautiful. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/20/8/ >> >> He (is) Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner. For Him (are) >> the names the beautiful. Glorifies Him whatever (is) in the heavens and the >> earth. And He (is) the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/59/24/ >> >> List, translation and recitation of the 99 names of Allah mentioned in >> the Quran >> http://www.searchtruth.com/Allah/99Names.php >> >> >>> >>> There is no intermediate between a person and the ultimate truth. I have >>> the feeling that literalism makes the prophet(s) into a sort of >>> intermediate, but this might already be a blasphem, at least in the >>> "correct religion" of the honest introspectibe being (machine or more >>> general). >>> >> >> There is no intercessor between a worshipper and Allah. Quran strictly >> refutes the concept of intermediates. We pray directly to Allah. >> >> And warn with it those who fear that they will be gathered to their Lord, >> not for them other than Him any protector and not any intercessor, so that >> they may (become) righteous. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/51/ >> >> A list of ten verses refuting intercessor: >> http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=intercessor&chapter=&translator=2&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all >> >> >> The Scripture is revealed indirectly because: >> And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him >> unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a >> messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise. >> http://islamawakened.com/quran/42/51/ Translator: Pickthall >> >> >> >>> We have already discussed this. I gave only the Bektashi Alevi Muslim >>> branch as a nice example of people calling themselves Muslim and which are >>> very close to the mathematical theology of the ideally correct machines. >>> For the Sufi, that point was not so clear (especially concerning some >>> modern sects). >>> >>> To expand ourself in the galaxy, we need the mechanist machine theology >>> (many machine will be non mechanist too, as the machine soul cannot believe >>> she is a machine). We must be open that God's creatures can be very >>> different on different planets and galaxies. Again a case where literalism >>> can divide instead of uniting. I think. >>> >> >> Why? We already believe in the unseen, for example the existence of jinns >> made from fire (energy lifeforms perhaps?) >> >> Samiya >> >> >> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Samiya >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> which is directly reflected in their spiritual flexibility and openness >>>> to *apparently different* faith. They understand that sacred texts are >>>> parabola to help the attempt to the personal experience of the divine, >>>> which is very often discouraged if not forbidden once a religion is >>>> institutionalized. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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