Bruno and Quentin, In my view John is not a troll -- in the sense that I don't think he is insincere. I think he's an intellectual bully, and I think there are many of them in the world of academia or otherwise.
I think all the horrible stuff of organized religion does not come from religion itself. It is just the exploitation of a more fundamental, and perhaps abstract, human flaw. It's a certain flavour of close-mindedness that can thrive on any set of ideas. This can be done with science, it can be done with ideology and we are living in an era where what I am saying is perhaps all too evident. I would say that this bad instinct comes when the desire to be right, for status or for meaning overrides the desire for truth-seeking. I call John a bully not because he disagrees with Bruno. Blindly agreeing is not truth-seeking. I call him that because he is intellectually closed to the possibility that he might be missing something, and then uses tricks to protect his ego: forced misunderstanding of words, name-calling, the "peepee" argument and so on. To be sure, I admit that I have been guilty in the past of all the things I am describing above. He are all human. I agree with Quentin that it is a waste of time to dwell on this topic too much. I was attracted to this mailing list because it was an environment where "crazy" ideas where given a chance, and discussed seriously be interested and interesting people. Such environments are fragile, they last while they last. If not John, someone else would play the role of the bully. I am a bit sad that discussion is now moving to facebook. For sure it's a way to "escape" and try to recover the freedom, but it is misguided. Facebook is an algorithmically-controlled environment. I cannot write a post there and be sure that the people who follow a certain group will have a chance to read it. That's for facebook to decide, ultimately based on advertiser-imposed constraints. Telmo. On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> wrote: > I think you're overthinking it... The motivation of John is clear, plain and > simple, he is a troll... He likes to contradict, if his contradiction is > plainly false the better... He has no other motivation than being a troll... > he must enjoy it that much for doing it since so long. > > So don't feed the troll, stop answering him... as he likes it, that can > continue till death of one of you, you won't make him acknowledge anything > you say or change his mind... that would presuppose he has one, which is > very unlikely. > > 2017-04-19 9:24 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >> >> >> On 18 Apr 2017, at 18:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 5:48 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 4:27 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> John Clark has no need to precisely define the word "you" because John >>>>>> Clark has no need to use that or any other personal pronoun to explain >>>>>> John >>>>>> Clark's ideas but instead can simply >>>>>> use a proper noun. By contrast Bruno Marchal can not do that because >>>>>> the >>>>>> inherent ambiguity the word "you" will always have if a "you" >>>>>> duplicating >>>>>> machine is going to be used >>>>>> on "you" >>>>>> in the future is the only thing that disguises the underlying >>>>>> silliness of Bruno Marchal's ideas. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I can do that, I did do that, and you did not answer. I let you find >>>>> the >>>>> post. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ah yes that mythical magical post that you've been talking about for >>>> years, >>>> the wonderful post where you logically refute all my points and make >>>> your >>>> theory crystal clear with no circularity or ambiguity, the post that is, >>>> unfortunately, as hard to find >>>> as >>>> the Loch Ness Monster, unicorns, >>>> or >>>> the >>>> pot of gold at the end of >>>> a >>>> rainbow. >>> >>> >>> You know why it's hard to find? Because every time that post shows up >>> you: >>> >>> go silent; >>> wait a certain amount of time; >>> come back to the beginning of the loop. >>> >>> That's why. It doesn't take an oracle to figure out that this >>> computation doesn't terminate. >>> >>> In any case, the post will never work with you. Natural language is (I >>> think necessarily) ambiguous, so it is only possible to discuss ideas >>> if all interlocutors are acting in good faith. The opportunities to >>> misinterpret anything on purpose are infinite, and you are a master at >>> taking advantage of them. >>> >>> How to talk about first-person experience vs. third-person theory with >>> someone who is fixated on pronoun legalese? Forget about it -- with no >>> offense to Bruno -- it's a fool's errand. >> >> >> >> John was doing a rhetorical maneuver again. The "mythical post" was just >> the sane04 paper. I was only alluding to the hundreds of post where he did >> what you describe above, where he introduces an ambiguity in the proper name >> or pronouns by abstracting from the 1p-3p distinction in the duplication >> experiences, and when someone explained this to him, he answered with >> "peepee" or thing at that level. I was alluding to hundreds of posts. John >> has never write one clear post refuting the step-3 which would make it >> possible to answer by one post. There is no need for this, as the answer is >> in the publications, which makes clear the 1-3 distinction, so the ambiguity >> that John dreams for cannot occur. >> >> It is not innocuous, as John is not the only one doing that. he is the >> only one doing it in front of me, so to speak. But the refusal of my thesis >> in 1998 in Brussels was based on similar maneuver (behind my back though), >> and the disappearance of the Le Monde prize too, and this by the director of >> the thesis in France, which was rather enthusiast at the defense of the >> thesis. That is why I try to understand their motivation. I know the >> motivation in Brussels, but elsewhere it is still a mystery. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
