On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:42, Telmo Menezes wrote:
I will gently help a little bit John here, if you don't mind. Not
only I did
claim that, but will claim it again!
No problem :)
I have no worry that you will see what I mean. In fact I can recast
a sum up
of dialog with John Clark in the following way:
I say that the first person is not duplicated *from the first person
perspective*. Like Brent and/or Quentin, probably others, saw is
that I am
just saying that, very obviously, the first person does not feel the
duplication. The 1-I is not duplicated in the 1-view, it is the 1-1
view,
which is actually the main invariant, so that along its history,
the 1 view
is the same as the 1-1 views, and 1-1-1 views, etc.
But John Clark will reply that such 1-view is duplicated. He is
right, but
that is the 3 view on the 1 views. Yes, the 3 external observer is
computationalist enough to attribute an 1private experience to both
copies.
Then John Clark go up to the 3 view again, and I could say, you are
right,
but that is the 3-1-1 views, take the 1-1-1 views, which are the 1-
views,
and John will go up to the 3-1-1-1 views which of course are
duplicated,
forcing me to say that we talk about the 1-views, seen by the 1-
views, seen
by the 1-views, etc.
John predicted once that in the movie thought experience (iterated
self-duplications); where you are duplicated 24 times per second
(24) during
1h30 (60 * 90), into as many copies can be sent in front of one of
the
2^(16180 * 10000) possible images on a screen with 16180 * 10000
pixels,
which can be black or white each.
That he will see with certainty Ingmar Bergman movie in french "les
fraises
sauvages", with chinese subscripts. And then, if after the
experience we ask
to one among most John Clarks,(who saw white noise) that one will
say that
he knows that his prediction was true, as he knows (how? BTW) that
a John
Clark has seen les fraises sauvages. You will tell him that this is
the 3-1
views and that the question was for the 1-1-1-... view, and explain
that the
question was asked to the 1p about the 1p, and John will go up to
the 3-1-1,
etc.
To say that consciousness is not duplicated from the view of the
conscious
experience is just saying that we don't feel the split, and cannot be
assured that a duplication has occured without 3p clues (like a
phone call
of the doppelganger, or like with the statistical interference of
wave of
possible "states/histories").
If you accept the "Theaetetus definition of knowledge" applied on
provability (which by Gödel's incompleteness behave like a belief,
even in
the correct case), that is to define the knowability of p by the
[(believability in p) with p], i.e. [1]p = []p & p, you get the 1-
views and
the 1-1-views, by iterating [1], like [1][1][1]p. You get the 3-1
views with
[][1]p. G is really a multimodal logic, where all the other
"views/hypostases" are macro-definition, and mixing them makes
(arithmetical) sense.
I'd say we are talking about different things.
John is accusing you of naive dualism. He says that you claim that
there is some mysterious substance (he finally called it a "soul")
that is not copied in your thought experiment. What I claim is this:
under physicalist assumptions, everything was copied.
Even without physicalism. Everything is copied in the 3p views. It is
more like under the assumption that the 1p views do not exist, or that
their are not interesting. Physicalism can be invoked of course, it is
the main tool to put the 1p/3p problem under the rug, even if all
progresses in physics can be seen as an amendment to this. Galilee,
then Einstein, then Everett ... bring back the "taking into account
the perspective of the subject.
Of course in cognitive science or philosophy of mind, we start from
accepting the existence of a subject.
The problem is
that physicalism leads to a contradiction, and then we can start
thinking about what you describe above. Do you agree?
I agree, up to invoking physicalism. I can imagine arithmeticalists
doing the same error. Of course JC uses physicalism in its background
assumption, and you allude to that fact.
Thanks for the help Telmo.
The only help I can provide is to talk like a lawyer -- in the sense
of, trying to answer in the most succinct way to remove the "attack
surface" for intentional misunderstandings. I'm not sure this is the
right thing to do.
It can help. I tend to agree with Quentin that John Clark seems
insincere. But I am not sure that not-answering him is a good
strategy, especially for newcomers. I can stop answering when we are
in a loop, but not when there is a new post, since long, coming up
with statement like "I have refute this" when it is not the case.
I know you're not interested in that, and I can
understand why.
Why? I am interested. Unless you sent me a enormous bill like lawyers
do :)
I am interested. That's why I thanked you. Clarification are always
useful, even if we can guess it will plausibly not help very much JC,
but we must think about all people reading the posts. Some of my
answer to JC are really for everybody ... except JC. I take the
opportunity to make some point clearer, or to show that some confusion
have to arise if we forget the assumptions and the definitions.
Bruno
I agree with all what you say. I hope this
precision might help you to see that the difference between G and
G* does
provide an explanation of the different nature of quanta and
qualia, and
that this put some light on the "hard" consciousness problem.
Bruno
The differences start when the copies are exposed
to different environments, just the same as it happens to you and me
as we go from observer moment to observer moment.
(I am repeating the "unicorn" posts, and know already that this
will go
nowhere)
Bruno assumes that there is some mysterious thing called "1-p
you" that
can't be duplicated, the "1-p you" is of course just a euphemism
for
"soul".
1-p is the first person perspective of reality. If you don't know
what
this is, then you're either a zombie or you're truly crazy.
Forget Bruno. Have you read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"? I know
that Plato was an ignoramus from the distant past and so on and so
forth, but this is a well-defined though experiment. Does it go
wrong
somewhere? Please provide arguments, not ad hominem stuff.
I do admit if one starts with the assumption that the soul exists
then
it's
easy to conclude the soul exists, but I can find no reason to
doubt a you
duplicating machine can duplicate everything about you including
your
soul,
sorry I meant to say including your 1-p you.
No, one just starts with the assumption that one perceives. The ONLY
thing that I know directly to be true. The least dogmatic statement
you could possibly imagine. As per above, the article is not about
proving that there is a "soul".
I think we made some progress though. My suspicion that you are
having
a knee-jerk reaction to something that sounds to you like a
religious
idea is more or less confirmed. I don't like religion either, but I
guess there's no point on dwelling on this.
For a proof to be worth anything you need to get more out of it
than you
put
in, even I can prove that the Ryman hypothesis is true if you let
me
start
with the assumption that the Ryman hypothesis is true, but that is
unlikely
to earn me the Fields Medal.
Man, I wish you won a Nobel Prize or a Fields Medal. Then maybe you
could relax and truly listen to other ideas.
Another 10 minutes wasted.
Telmo.
John K Clark
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