> On 12 Dec 2018, at 12:54, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:09:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 12:58, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:41:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 12:11, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>> Nothing is "confirmed" and "made precise". 
>>> (Derrida, Rorty, …)
>> That would make Derrida and Rorty into obscurantism. Confirmation does not 
>> make an idea true, but it is better than nothing, once we postulate some 
>> reality.
>> Some “philosophies” prevents the scientific attitude, like some “religions” 
>> do, although only when they are used for that purpose.  Some philosophies 
>> vindicate  their lack of rigour into a principle. That leads to relativisme, 
>> and obscurantism. It looks nice as anyone can defend any idea, but 
>> eventually it hurts in front of the truth.
>> Bruno
>> Have you read some of the Opinions* or watched some of the (youtube) 
>> lectures of Rutgers math professor Doron Zeilberger?
>> I've been following him like forever.
>> * e.g.
>> Mathematics is so useful because physical scientists and engineers have the 
>> good sense to largely ignore the "religious" fanaticism of professional 
>> mathematicians, and their insistence on so-called rigor, that in many cases 
>> is misplaced and hypocritical, since it is based on "axioms" that are 
>> completely fictional, i.e. those that involve the so-called infinity.
> Mechanism proves this. Arithmetic, without infinity axiom, even without the 
> induction axiom, is the “ontological things”. Induction axioms, infinity, 
> physics, humans, etc. belongs to the phenomenology. The phenomenology is not 
> less real, but its is not primary, it is second order, and that fiction is 
> needed to survive, even if fictionally. 
> Bruno
> To experiential realists, phenomenal consciousness is a real thing.

That is what the soul of the machine ([]p & p) says to itself (1p) correctly. 
It is real indeed. But it is non definable, and non provable. The machine’s 
soul knows that her soul is not a machine, nor even anything describable in any 
3p terms.

> To real (experiential) materialists (panpsychism), consciousness is intrinsic 
> to matter (like electric charge, etc.). So that would make consciousness 
> primary.

Then you better need to say “no” to the doctor who propose you a digital body.

But are you OK that your daughter marry a man who got one such digital body in 
his childhood, to survive some disease?

You might say yes, and invoke the fact that he is material. The point will be 
that if he survives through a *digital* substitution, it can be shown that no 
universal machine at all is unable to distinguish, without observable clue, a 
physical reality from any of infinitely many emulation of approximations of 
that physical reality at some level of substitution (fine grained, with 10^100 
decimals correct, for example). Then, infinitely many such approximation exists 
in arithmetic, even in diophantine polynomial equation, and the invariance of 
the first person for “delays of reconstitution” (definable by the number of 
steps done by the universal dovetailer to get the relevant states) entails that 
the 1p is confronted with a continuum. The math shows that it has to be a 
special (models of []p & p, and []p & <>t & p. [] is the arithmetical 
“beweisbar” predicate of provability of Gödel 1931. It is my generic 
Gödel-Löbian machine, shortly: Löbian. They obeys to the formula of modesty of 
Löb: []([]p -> p) -> []p. It represents a scheme of theorems of PA saying that 
PA is close for the Löb rule: if you convince PA that the provability of the 
existence of Santa Klauss entails the existence of Santa Klauss, then PA will 
soon or later prove the existence of Santa Klauss. Put in another way, unless 
PA proves something, she will never prove that the provability of something 
entails that something. PA is maximally modest on her own provability ability. 

In particular, with f the constant proposition false, consistency, the ~[]f, 
equivalent with []f -> f, is not provable, so []p -> p is in general not 
provable and is not a theorem of PA.

Incompleteness enforces the nuances between

Truth                   p
Provable                        []p
Knowable                []p & p
Observable              []p & <>t.  (t = propositional constant true, <> = ~[]~ 
= consistent)
Sensible                        []p & <>t

And incompleteness also doubles, or split,  the provable, the observable and 
the sensible along the provable/true parts, G and G*.
That gives 8 personal points of view on the (sigma_1) Arithmetic. 5 
“terrestrial” (provable) and 5 “divine” (true but non provable) modes on the 
Self, with two of them (Truth and Knowable) at the intersection of Earth 
(effective, provable) and Heaven (truth).

The beauty is that G* proves p <-> []p <-> []p&p <-> []p&<>t <-> []p&<>t&p, but 
G proves virtually none. (p sigma_1). In this setting p -> []p is equivalent 
with sigma_1 completeness, or Turing universality, and the Löbian entities 
typically can prove all p -> []p formula. But the consistent machine cannot 
prove []p -> p in general. That is why the logic and the mathematics of all the 
nuances differ a lot from the machine's local point of view, despite they true 


> https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/
> - pt
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