> On 16 Apr 2019, at 18:56, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019, at 18:42, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: >> Because Rover is just a bunch of atoms. Is nothing more than the sum of >> atoms. But in the case of self-reference/emergence, each new level is more >> than the sum of the previous levels. > > I disagree. My position on this is that people are tricked into thinking that > emergence has some ontological status, when if fact it is just an > epistemological tool. We need to think in higher-order structures to simplify > things (organisms, organs, mean-fields, cells, ant colonies, societies, > markets, etc), but a Jupiter-brain could keep track of every entity > separately and apprehend the entire thing at the same time. Emergence is a > mental shortcut. > > Self-reference is another matter (pun was accidental).
OK. Third person self-reference is P(x) = F(x, ‘P’). First person self reference is … something more subtle, related to this person self-reference, but with a God knowing that the lmachine refers correctly to itself, and the machine accessing to that knowledge at some level (as is the case with mechanism). > >> >> I don't know how you can trick yourself so badly into believing that if you >> put some rocks together, the rocks become alive. Maybe because you think >> that the brain is just a bunch of atoms. No, it is now. If you were to >> measure what the electrons are doing in the brain, you would see that they >> are not moving according to known physics, but they are being moved by >> consciousness. > > For me, this is yet another version of "God did it". There is no point in > attempting to explain some complex behavior if the explanation is even more > complex and mysterious. I completely agree. Now, if the pshycis in the head of all universal machine differs from what we observe, we can have evidence that something more complex needs to be assume, but that means either that Mechanism is false, or that we are in a malevolent simulation (we are intentionally lied). > >> >> And this doesn't happen in a machine. In a machine, electrons move according >> to known physics. > > These are fairly extraordinary claims. Do you have any empirical data to > support them? Only physical machine have electron, and electron are only emergent from the arithmetical truth seen by universal number inside. With mechanism, is emergent = not real, physics and natural science = not real, but yet, it obeys laws, and is phenomenologically real for all universal number/machine. (Up to now, given that nature confirmes mechanism, and thus seems to refute physicalism. Bruno > > Telmo. > >> >> On Tuesday, 16 April 2019 15:25:40 UTC+3, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> How can you argue that Rover has no knowledge, when you say that knowledge >> is not formalisable? >> >> Introducing some fuzziness to claim a negative thing about a relation of the >> type consciousness/machine is a bit frightening. It reminds the catholic >> older sophisticated “reasoning” to assert that Indians have no soul. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
