On Sunday, May 5, 2019, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> > > On 5/5/2019 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > How do we know other humans are conscious (we don't, we can only suspect > it). > > Why do we suspect other humans are conscious (due to their outwardly > visible behaviors). > > Due to the Church-Turing thesis, we know an appropriately programmed > computer can replicate any finitely describable behavior. Therefore a > person with an appropriately programmed computer, placed in someone's > skill, and wired into the nervous system of a human could perfectly mimic > the behaviors, speech patterns, thoughts, skills, of any person you have > ever met. > > Do you dispute any of the above? > > > It assumes you could violate Holevo's theorem to obtain the necessary > program. > You could find the program by chance or by iteration (for the purposes of the thought experiment). Jason > > > If you encountered a close friend who had to get a computer replacement > for his brain (e.g. due to an inoperable tumor), and this friend displayed > perfect mimicry of the behavior prior to the surgery, would you continue to > tell him he his not conscious, despite his protestations that he is every > bit as conscious as before? On what basis would this your claim rest? > > > Some of my friends I'd tell him it was amazing how much smarter he was. > > Brent > > > Jason > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 1:33 PM <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Re: "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and "all matter is >> conscious" >> >> I do think the first (human brains at least, and perhaps some non-human >> brains, from primates to down* the "food-chain"). >> >> Some think there was no fully or cognitively conscious (only a sensory >> conscious) human before language. There may be something to that. >> >> But not the second (where there is self and self-awareness). *Rocks are >> not conscious.* But the idea is that all matter does have some level of >> *elementary >> protoconsciousness* in various types, phases, and configurations of >> matter. When some matter is combined into certain configurations (like a >> human brain), these *protopsychical parts* are fused into something >> conscious. >> >> * Do Insects Have Consciousness and Ego? >> *The brains of insects are similar to a structure in human brains, which >> could show a rudimentary form of consciousness* >> >> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/do-insects- >> have-consciousness-ego-180958824/ >> >> >> I don't think that societies are conscious, the Earth is conscious, the >> universe is conscious. >> >> The Earth is aware of itself? I don't think so. >> >> @philipthrift >> >> >> >> On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 8:25:26 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>> You keep trotting out the term "cybernetic delusion" as if it's a >>> problem. But it's just an assumption I make, that consciousness is >>> identified with cybernetic dynamics. I'm exploring the consequences of that >>> idea, which are compelling IMO. >>> >>> You or anyone else can feel free to adopt or not adopt that assumption. >>> But it's not a delusion. Calling it that suggests there's a more correct >>> way to view consciousness. But you haven't been clear about what that is, >>> vacillating between "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and >>> "all matter is conscious". If you adopt panpsychism, you fall prey to the >>> cybernetic delusion yourself. And when you don't, *you fail to explain >>> what privileges certain kinds of matter over others*. It seems pretty >>> clear to me that there's no principled way to do that... any explanation of >>> why brains can be conscious but not computers starts to sound suspiciously >>> like "spirit" and "soul", in the sense that you're invoking some property >>> of matter that cannot be detected. >>> >>> Terren >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 4:57 AM <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 8:30:00 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' < >>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *> What happens in cases of telepathy is [...]. For example, in cases >>>>>> of dream telepathy [...] This clearly is a case of dream telepathy.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> OK, there was little doubt before but you just made it official, Cosmin >>>>> Visan is a crackpot. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Telepathy I doubt pretty bigly, but the cybernetic delusion is a really >>>> crackpot idea. >>>> >>>> @philipthrift >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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