On Sunday, May 5, 2019, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 5/5/2019 5:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 5, 2019, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/5/2019 3:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> How do we know other humans are conscious (we don't, we can only suspect >> it). >> >> Why do we suspect other humans are conscious (due to their outwardly >> visible behaviors). >> >> Due to the Church-Turing thesis, we know an appropriately programmed >> computer can replicate any finitely describable behavior. Therefore a >> person with an appropriately programmed computer, placed in someone's >> skill, and wired into the nervous system of a human could perfectly mimic >> the behaviors, speech patterns, thoughts, skills, of any person you have >> ever met. >> >> Do you dispute any of the above? >> >> >> It assumes you could violate Holevo's theorem to obtain the necessary >> program. >> > > > You could find the program by chance or by iteration (for the purposes of > the thought experiment). > > > In those cases you could never know that you had been successful. > The question wasn't whether or not we would succeed, but given that we know it is possible to succeed, given there ezists a program that could convince you it was your friend, why doubt it is consciousness? Jason > > > > Brent > > > Jason > > >> >> >> If you encountered a close friend who had to get a computer replacement >> for his brain (e.g. due to an inoperable tumor), and this friend displayed >> perfect mimicry of the behavior prior to the surgery, would you continue to >> tell him he his not conscious, despite his protestations that he is every >> bit as conscious as before? On what basis would this your claim rest? >> >> >> Some of my friends I'd tell him it was amazing how much smarter he was. >> >> Brent >> >> >> Jason >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 1:33 PM <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Re: "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and "all matter is >>> conscious" >>> >>> I do think the first (human brains at least, and perhaps some non-human >>> brains, from primates to down* the "food-chain"). >>> >>> Some think there was no fully or cognitively conscious (only a sensory >>> conscious) human before language. There may be something to that. >>> >>> But not the second (where there is self and self-awareness). *Rocks >>> are not conscious.* But the idea is that all matter does have some >>> level of *elementary protoconsciousness* in various types, phases, and >>> configurations of matter. When some matter is combined into certain >>> configurations (like a human brain), these *protopsychical parts* are >>> fused into something conscious. >>> >>> * Do Insects Have Consciousness and Ego? >>> *The brains of insects are similar to a structure in human brains, which >>> could show a rudimentary form of consciousness* >>> >>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/do-insects-have- >>> consciousness-ego-180958824/ >>> >>> >>> I don't think that societies are conscious, the Earth is conscious, the >>> universe is conscious. >>> >>> The Earth is aware of itself? I don't think so. >>> >>> @philipthrift >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 8:25:26 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>> You keep trotting out the term "cybernetic delusion" as if it's a >>>> problem. But it's just an assumption I make, that consciousness is >>>> identified with cybernetic dynamics. I'm exploring the consequences of that >>>> idea, which are compelling IMO. >>>> >>>> You or anyone else can feel free to adopt or not adopt that assumption. >>>> But it's not a delusion. Calling it that suggests there's a more correct >>>> way to view consciousness. But you haven't been clear about what that is, >>>> vacillating between "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and >>>> "all matter is conscious". If you adopt panpsychism, you fall prey to the >>>> cybernetic delusion yourself. And when you don't, *you fail to explain >>>> what privileges certain kinds of matter over others*. It seems pretty >>>> clear to me that there's no principled way to do that... any explanation of >>>> why brains can be conscious but not computers starts to sound suspiciously >>>> like "spirit" and "soul", in the sense that you're invoking some property >>>> of matter that cannot be detected. >>>> >>>> Terren >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 4:57 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 8:30:00 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *> What happens in cases of telepathy is [...]. For example, in cases >>>>>>> of dream telepathy [...] This clearly is a case of dream telepathy.* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, there was little doubt before but you just made it official, Cosmin >>>>>> Visan is a crackpot. >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Telepathy I doubt pretty bigly, but the cybernetic delusion is a >>>>> really crackpot idea. >>>>> >>>>> @philipthrift >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> > > > >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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