> On 19 Feb 2020, at 23:13, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:52 PM Bruno Marchal <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > On 18 Feb 2020, at 23:07, Bruce Kellett <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:41 PM Bruno Marchal <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> On 17 Feb 2020, at 22:50, Bruce Kellett <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Again, you use the 3p view to refute a 1p perception. And that is invalid. >> >> I do not refute the 1p perception, only the theory some person can build, >> and which is wrong for almost all copies. Keep in mind that the question is >> about a future first person experience, not on anything communicable in a 3p >> manner. >> >> I agree. So there is no-one with access to all personal diaries for >> comparative purposes -- there is no correct probability, and no-one is wrong >> (from the 1p view). > > > OK. But as you say above this required assuming that the brain, or something > in the brain is not Tutrin emulable, and so you need to reject Mechanism, > > Of course I reject Mechanism -- it is a failed theory that has not led to any > scientific advances.
That failed theory has led to the theory of evolution and modern biology. It is also a consequence of all known physical theories. > > > but then you have to reject Darwinism, and many theories which impliy > Mechanism. Non Mechanism is sometimes sum up by “belief in magic”. Diderot > defined Rationalism by Descarte’s Mechanism. > > You really do over-reach yourself here, Bruno. Mechanism is not much more than the idea that there is no magic operating in the brain. It is not my theory, it is probably the oldest theory in the history of humanity. But after Turing & Co., it is a branch of mathematical logic, and it leads to testable consequence. What I have shown is: - 1) the logical incompatibility between weak form of Mechanism and weak form of materialism - 2) it entails the reduction of the mind-body into a precise derivation of physics from arithmetic, through the mathematics of self-reference (Gödel, Löb, Solovay, …). > > > So my question was really: Assuming Mechanism, do you see that it leads to a > first person indeterminacy, and a first person plural indeterminacy, inside > population of machines, in the case where we duplicate those (entire) > population? > > Since I do not assume Mechanism, If you assume a physical primary universe, then you have to abandon mechanism, but then you are no more in the scope of the "theory of everything”, as you are no more trying to relate consciousness and matter. Physics is nice and wonderful, but it is not metaphysics, unless you make clear that you do a metaphysical commitment. My “meta-point” is that we can do metaphysics or theology with the scientific attitude and method. > and have no intention of ever entering the pretend world where Mechanism is > assumed, Most believer hates mechanism. My problem is only with people believing in mechanism (or using it) and believing in physicalism/materialism/naturalism. > I have no answer to your question: except that the world is not deterministic > -- stochastic process are central. OK, but where does that stochasticity comes from? And where does the physical universe come from, and how do you relate it to the first person? And how you test your theory? You seem to invoke a non-mechanist theory of mind, but that is very demanding, and without precision, it is like following the pseudo-religious tradition of putting the mind-body problem under the rug (a tradition whose origin is in the closure of Plato academy in Athene (529)). Bruno > > Bruce > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAFxXSLQQXSqSj10T4ysVLowJ5q5sRfw46eU3sunb5VohPP4UTg%40mail.gmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAFxXSLQQXSqSj10T4ysVLowJ5q5sRfw46eU3sunb5VohPP4UTg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/895BF150-EC34-417F-84C1-2A8A67845E9A%40ulb.ac.be.
