On 5/5/2020 5:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 4 May 2020, at 20:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
<everything-list@googlegroups.com
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
On 5/4/2020 6:27 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Le lun. 4 mai 2020 à 14:15, Lawrence Crowell
<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com
<mailto:goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com>> a écrit :
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote:
On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote:
> The SSH
>
> https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247
>
> still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics
today.(IT
> FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of
idealism.
>
> It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of
> materialist* physics - particles, fields, interactions,
forces - but
> to approach CONSCIOUSNESS AS PURELY MATERIAL - adding a new
> force/interaction/particle/field as needed (like a sixth
force/field).
>
>
http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness
>
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness
>
> etc.
>
> * or physicalist
>
> @philipthrift
Physicalism is a dead end. The hard problem of consciousness
and other
philosophical problems can be considered to be no-go
theorems against
physicalism. Abandoning physicalism solves all these
problems in one
fell swoop. But that also opens the door to wrong theories
as people
engaging with non-physicalist theories can too easily
advertise their
pet theories because they don't suffer from all the diseases
physicalist
theories suffer from. The bar has to be set higher, I would
like to see
a derivation of the laws of physics, not some vague argument
that it is
consistent with QM and unitary evolution but a lot more
detail than just
that.
Saibal
I think more likely this mean the hard problem or qualia are
illusions. I have far more confidence in physics than I do in
hopeful ideas about qualia, which are psychological form of elan
vital thought in previous centuries to underlie biology.
Either you have no quale, and then as a zombie... it could mean
something (but not to you), or you have, and if a theory cannot
account for that, it miss the things it purpose to explain.
When you say "psychological form" you're talking about a quale... I
don't see how that could be explained away...
I think the problem here is with the word "explain". Yes, physics
will never explain quale. But physics doesn't explain matter, or
gravity, or entropy either. Physics is regarded as successful because
it makes good predictions, and that allows manipulation of things.
Look at the controversy over the interpretation of quantum
mechanics. We have drastically different "explanations" of what is
happening...which have zero effect on the application or usefulness
of the theory. And that's exactly the same situation with regard to
consciousness and qualia. Chemistry and biology have a lot of of
good "explanations" of quale in the sense of being able to predict
them and manipulate them. Sure, it's no where near as deep as
physics explanations which reach down to sub-atomic level. But
physics aims for depth and bypasses the complex problems of biology
as accidents of evolution, mere geography problems. There's no
reason to suppose that chemistry and molecular biology and study of
brain structure
OK.
and AI will not reach the same depth of explanation of consciousness.
Once you invoke AI or mechanism, the deep explanation will have to
reduce physics to some mathematics (indeed to G* intensional variant).
Or it brings magical ontological commitment just to hide ignorance,
and that is bad religion/philosophy.
And it still won't "explain" quale,
Where Mechanism does.
but it will manipulate them and reproduce them in AI and people will
forget all about how mysterious they were...just like they have
forgotten elan vitale.
Even the AI will not been convinced by this. The élan vitale does not
explain one thing.
Right. And neither does "mechanism".
The qualia are just unavoidable data, which, when we suppose mechanism
are easier to explain, and indeed already explains the existence of
quanta as first person sharable qualia.
Mechanism explains, in a coherent and testable way, why we feel like
if there was a material reality, and a mental reality.
No it doesn't. You just say it must. It does not explain why you and I
agree on what this sentence says.
Adding a magical primitive matter makes that explanation no more
working, so why to add it?
Every time I refer to matter in an explanation, you falsely accuse me of
invoking "primitive matter". I have no concept of "primitive matter".
and I don't even believe in "primitiveness". I think it is a religious
supersitition.
Brent
The goal is not to replaced physics by some better predictive science,
except for the afterlife problem, where, with some exception like
Tipler, is not part of the physical inquiry, but of metaphysics, and
the point is that with mechanism, any Aristotelian theories cannot work.
Physics and Metaphysics are different science. To make them equal *is*
the Aristotelian act of faith, and this can work only by invoking non
Turing elmulable element in the brain. But there is no evidences for
this, and thanks to quantum mechanics, the startling many histories
aspect needed for a mechanist theory of the observable is vindicated
by the experiments.
Bruno
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
<mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/793213e0-89f6-f6fa-bc72-4c3b7608fe34%40verizon.net
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/793213e0-89f6-f6fa-bc72-4c3b7608fe34%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
<mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ED07C8B8-5478-46C5-8398-6A5E56E338A9%40ulb.ac.be
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/ED07C8B8-5478-46C5-8398-6A5E56E338A9%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/247391a7-96df-8cd6-0229-335e9f3aaa0a%40verizon.net.
