> On 5 May 2020, at 17:36, Lawrence Crowell <[email protected]> > wrote: > > As a strange loop consciousness may be an illusion having an illusion of > itself.
I cannot make sense of this. How could consciousness be an illusion, as an illusion is a conscious expérience. I can imagine myself dreaming that my bicycle is conscious, and then wake up; that was an illusion. But I cannot imagine dreaming that I am conscious, then waking up, and understanding that consciousness is an illusion. I would say that consciousness is the fixed point of the doubt: it is the only thing that I am unable to doubt. To doubt consciousness is non sensical, like a circular square. Only the content, and indeed all contents minus one exception (consciousness itself), can be doubted (could be an illusion). When we postulate the Mechanist hypothesis, there is no ontological phenomenological physical universe. The appearance of the physical universe emerge from the statistics on all computations (a purely arithmetical notion) going through “my” current state. That works in the sense that we recover both the many-worlds/histories aspect of the observable, and the quantum logical formalism, and the symmetries. Mechanism generalises Noether theorem and Gleason theorem to arithmetic, and the laws of physics becomes “machine independent”: they don’t depend on the choice of the universal machinery that we have to postulate (to give sense to mechanism, but also because we cannot deduce a universal machinery from anything non universal). Bruno > > LC > > On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 6:17:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 4 May 2020, at 15:00, Telmo Menezes <[email protected] >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Am Mo, 4. Mai 2020, um 12:15, schrieb Lawrence Crowell: >>> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 10:14:10 PM UTC-5, smitra wrote: >>> On 03-05-2020 23:09, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> > The SSH >>> > >>> > https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247 >>> > <https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/22/2/247> >>> > >>> > still lies in the "information turn" that plays in physics today.(IT >>> > FROM QUBIT, etc.) - a rejection pf materialism in favor of idealism. >>> > >>> > It is more interesting to me to stick to the vocabulary of >>> > materialist* physics - particles, fields, interactions, forces - but >>> > to approach CONSCIOUSNESS AS PURELY MATERIAL - adding a new >>> > force/interaction/particle/field as needed (like a sixth force/field). >>> > >>> > http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness >>> > <http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Field_theories_of_consciousness> >>> > >>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness >>> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness> >>> > >>> > etc. >>> > >>> > * or physicalist >>> > >>> > @philipthrift >>> >>> Physicalism is a dead end. The hard problem of consciousness and other >>> philosophical problems can be considered to be no-go theorems against >>> physicalism. Abandoning physicalism solves all these problems in one >>> fell swoop. But that also opens the door to wrong theories as people >>> engaging with non-physicalist theories can too easily advertise their >>> pet theories because they don't suffer from all the diseases physicalist >>> theories suffer from. The bar has to be set higher, I would like to see >>> a derivation of the laws of physics, not some vague argument that it is >>> consistent with QM and unitary evolution but a lot more detail than just >>> that. >>> >>> Saibal >>> >>> I think more likely this mean the hard problem or qualia are illusions. >> >> Isn't an illusion itself a qualia? Aren't you begging the question? > > Yes. Consciousness cannot be an illusion, as a genuine illusion needs > consciousness. LC’s remark does not makes sense. It looks like the usual > physicalist attempt to put the mind-body problem under the rug. > > With mechanism, it is the PRIMITIVE physical universe which is an illusion, > and up to now, that illusion is explained by the number relation, except for > our belief in numbers, which is still completely explained as being > necessarily not explainable from less (or equivalent). That is why I claim > that mechanism does solve the mind body problem, where adding infinities in > the physical world just suggest a non mechanist theory of mind, which add > difficulties without reason. > > There are no evidence for a primitive physical universe. There strong > evidence for the existence of a physical universe or physical reality, but no > evidence for its pirmaryness, as the antic greek understood very well, when > inventing Mathematics (a mathematician was a pholospher skeptic about he > physicalness of the absolute reality). > > Bruno > > > >> >> Telmo. >> >>> I have far more confidence in physics than I do in hopeful ideas about >>> qualia, which are psychological form of elan vital thought in previous >>> centuries to underlie biology. >>> >>> LC >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fc14bd06-c600-4e6a-abf1-b73943d36617%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fc14bd06-c600-4e6a-abf1-b73943d36617%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fb72afca-3b77-447d-88d2-65286e0fe542%40www.fastmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/fb72afca-3b77-447d-88d2-65286e0fe542%40www.fastmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/af4d2e45-79e5-4b4d-8e82-fb19fa3d339b%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/af4d2e45-79e5-4b4d-8e82-fb19fa3d339b%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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