> On 14 Jun 2020, at 14:01, Alan Grayson <agrayson2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 4:55:32 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 14 Jun 2020, at 03:06, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 2:52:22 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 13 Jun 2020, at 04:01, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 3:43:59 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 11 Jun 2020, at 17:35, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 5:15:30 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11 Jun 2020, at 04:00, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 11:25:51 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 10:29:34 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 6:26:10 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7 Jun 2020, at 17:56, Alan Grayson <agrays...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 9:00:46 AM UTC-6, Alan Grayson wrote:
>>>>>> It predicts everything, so it predicts nothing. AG
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's not unlike the monkey typing at random and coming up with 
>>>>>> Shakespeare's plays, or the Bible. AG 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Using this analogy, it is more like the monkey typing *all* books. Except 
>>>>> that the monkey is elementary arithmetic, and there is non need of 
>>>>> randomness at that stage, and also, the books are not books, but true 
>>>>> (semantic) relations implementing computations, and then physics is shown 
>>>>> to be an internal measure, isolated from the Göde-Löb-Solvay theorem in 
>>>>> the mathematics iff self-reference.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The theory is Kxy = x together with Sxyz = xz(yz), as I have explained a 
>>>>> year ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The theology is the modal logics G and G*, and the intensional (modal) 
>>>>> variants imposed by incompleteness, and all that is justified without 
>>>>> using more than the two axioms above. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> “My” theory is a sub theory of al scientific theories. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Look at the conceptual progresses even just on physics:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bohr:
>>>>>   - the wave equation (full arithmetic + analysis)
>>>>>   - a dualist unintelligible theory of mind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Everett
>>>>>   - the wave equation (full arithmetic + analysis)
>>>>>   - Mechanism
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your servitor:
>>>>>   - arithmetic (a tiny part of arithmetic)
>>>>>   - Mechanism.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If “my" theory (which is actually a theorem showing that “my” theory is 
>>>>> the Universal machine theory) predicts everything, then all theories 
>>>>> predict everything.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I suspect that you have not really try to understand the theory. It is 
>>>>> not mine, it is the theory that any patient being can derive from 
>>>>> mechanism and computer science/arithmetic. The hard work have already be 
>>>>> done by Gödel, Kleene, Löb, and others. Two key theorems which summarise 
>>>>> a lot are the two theorem by Solovay, which summarise the theology of the 
>>>>> machine in one modal logic G*. Such question or read the papers if you 
>>>>> want to really address the “mechanist mind-body problem”.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not motivated to study your theory. If all computation are possible, 
>>>>> it seems to imply, for example, that any G describes a possible Newtonian 
>>>>> gravity law, but can't tell is which G corresponds to our universe, let 
>>>>> alone show that Newton's law is just a weak field approximation of GR. AG 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, I don't believe that logic alone, with the postulates of 
>>>>> arithmetic, can distinguish one G from another,
>>>> 
>>>> I don’t know. If you are right on this, this entails that “G” is 
>>>> geographical. Of course, this comes from the fact that mechanism has to 
>>>> re-define the physical by the laws on the observable available to all 
>>>> universal numbers. If not, some non Turing elulable magic is brought in 
>>>> the theory of mind (implicitly).
>>>> 
>>>> Firstly, I don't take any firm position on the ontological status of the 
>>>> physical universe.
>>> 
>>> OK.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> What I AM saying is that logic alone and the property of numbers do not 
>>>> have sufficient inherent information to distinguish the validity of 
>>>> physical theories,
>>> 
>>> I doubt this. Since 1931/1936, we know that the simple laws of addition and 
>>> multiplication of the natural numbers (not the real numbers), when taking 
>>> together, leads to a Turing-complete theory, i.e. notably a Turing 
>>> universal system. They can define what is a computation, and prove the 
>>> existence of all of them. Assuming Mechanism, we belongs to all of them, so 
>>> to make any physical (observable) prediction, we have to take them into 
>>> account  to make any prediction. Newtonian-like physics does not work 
>>> without invoking an ontological primary physical “computation selection” 
>>> which can be shown incompatible with mechanism.
>>> 
>>> I disagree. One need not assume any ontological status for the physical 
>>> universe, but one can still determine whether Newtonian physics "works". AG
>> 
>> No problem. But whatever the physics you are assuming, eventually, if you 
>> want to get the qualia, you need to explain the physical laws from 
>> arithmetic (and its internal meta-arithmetic-aka-computer science).
>> 
>> Maybe you're trying to do too much? If all computations are possible (Turing 
>> complete?), which allows you to compute all possible physical laws, but you 
>> can't determine which laws correspond to our universe, there's no way to 
>> discover anything. AG  
> 
> 
> You misinterpret what I said. The laws of physics arise from relative but 
> global statistics on all computations (which are arithmetical object).
> 
> What does this mean? AG


To answer this, you need to understand that all computations are run in the 
standard model of arithmetic (actually, in *all* models of arithmetic, but I do 
not use this here).

It is not more or less astonishing that the fact that some computation are run 
by the physical reality, even when seen as a static 4D space-time 
“bloc-universe”. The arithmetical reality is a sort of bloc-mindscape. We can 
come back on this, as indeed not so much people are aware of this, despite this 
is “well known” since the 1930s.

Then, as I explained usually with the Universal Dovetailer Argument, it is easy 
to understand that to predict any first person experience, you need to take 
into account the infinitely many computations going through your state right 
“now”. Not only arithmetic run all the computation (made by your brain at the 
relevant level), but it does it infinitely many “often”, that is in different 
number relations.



>  
> The laws of physics are unique, and entirely determined by the arithmetical 
> reality of the computations.
> 
> Can't there be a universe where gravity acts as 1/r^3? AG

Most plausibly not. The computation where there is an apparent gravity acting 
as 1/r^3 will not be stable/relatively-numerous enough to allow the 
consciousness flux to remain stable “in there”.

Of course, there is no universe at all, as only 0, 1, 2, 3 … are said to exist. 
But in the phenomenological physics, all the laws are well determined, and 
unique. The unicity is easy to prove given that the physical laws are given by 
a unique measure on the set of all computations, structured by the precise laws 
of the mathematics of self-reference. 

Bruno



> 
> “Our universe” has no meaning. There is just no “universe” at all. The 
> empirical physical reality is a psychological or theological phenomenon, and 
> it is the same for (almost) all universal machine (all, but a finite number 
> of exceptions).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> With QM: that selection (the wave collapse) is made more obvious, more 
>>> tangible, and … more doubtful, and indeed, if we reject it, QM becomes a 
>>> confirmation of the main startling aspect of mechanism (we have infinitely 
>>> many relative “bodies”. 
>>>> where validity means predictability.
>>> 
>>> Actually, I believe only that predictability of the absurd means 
>>> non-validity. Non predictability by itself does not lead to non validity, 
>>> unless … you take Aristotle physicalist stance at the start (which *is* 
>>> invalid).
>>> 
>>> The physical universe manifests some level of existence, even if it's not 
>>> the ultimate reality, and there's nothing absurd in testing physics with 
>>> reference to this reality. AG 
>> 
>> OK.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Good predictions are what we use to distinguish good theories,
>>> OK.
>>>> and this has nothing to do with the ontological status of the physical 
>>>> universe.
>>> 
>>> It has, if you want to predict some physical happening, you need either a 
>>> physical universe to start with, or a theory which explains where the 
>>> physical universe comes from.
>>> 
>>> One can verify a physical theory without having a theory of the origin of 
>>> the physical universe. Just do some measuring! AG
>> 
>> Absolutely, but to get the qualia, you need to justify the appearance of the 
>> physical reality without invoking it.
>> 
>> Justifying the appearance of physical reality might be, and probably is an 
>> ultimate goal, but one should be able to determine which possible physical 
>> laws correspond to our universe without it. I don't believe this is possible 
>> solely via logic and the postulates of arithmetic, and I see nothing in your 
>> comments to convince me otherwise.  AG 
> 
> That has been proved (I would say). With mechanism, the laws of physics are 
> given by the statistics on the first person experiences, and eventually we 
> are saved from solipsism by the math, as we get a notion of first person 
> plural, sharable, physical reality.
> That is is needed, of course (like any thesis on any reality assumed to be 
> “out there”) of continual testing. It could be refuted tomorrow, or in 2 
> billions years. We never know the truth-for-sure (except for consciousness), 
> but all our beliefs can be corrected sometimes, or not. Today all the 
> evidences favours mechanism. There are simply no evidence for a physical 
> universe “in-necessary-need-to-be-assumed" (a primitive physical universe). 
> 
> I don’t expect this to be understood in few posts. This requires a lot of 
> works, and some familiarity with mathematical logic.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Physics is just not metaphysics, nor theology, unless you assume 
>> physicalism, and in that case you will need some form of non-mechanist 
>> theory of mind, and you are out of the scope of my working hypothesis. You 
>> will have to present a non computational theory of mind, or just not doing 
>> metaphysics/theology.
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>  
>>> With Mechanism, the first option is just not available, and you have to 
>>> recover the *appearance* of the physical universe from some statistic on 
>>> all computations going through your actual brain or body relative 
>>> representation/incarnation/implementation. Without Mechanism you need a non 
>>> mechanist theory of mind, which does not yet exist.
>>>> As for "the observable available to all universal numbers", I also doubt 
>>>> that numbers can observe anything. AG 
>>> A number cannot think, or make observation, per se. Nor can a physical 
>>> body. Nor can anything purely third person describable.
>>> 
>>> Nor can a number be universal per se.
>>> 
>>> So when I say that a number can think, observe, or even just be (Turing) 
>>> universal, it is always a short manner to say that relatively to some 
>>> “base” phi_i, that number belongs to a (true) relation making it mirroring 
>>> perfectly (at the mechanist substitution level) the behaviour of a person, 
>>> as related to its brain.
>>> 
>>> So, either you were mislead by my short way to express myself, or you are 
>>> just asserting that you believe that the Mechanist philosophy is wrong. I 
>>> am agnostic on all this. My point is that mechanism can be tested, and that 
>>> the currently available evidences favour Mechanism, and quasi-disprove 
>>> physicalism.
>>> 
>>> Bruno
>>>>> to obtain the weak field approximation of GR, aka Newtonian gravity; or 
>>>>> that the measured velocity of light is independent of the motions of 
>>>>> source and recipient. AG 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I got my answer, by default. AG 
>>>> 
>>>> ?
>>>> 
>>>> Bruno
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
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