> On 19 Dec 2020, at 09:12, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > Come on Philip, don't be so gloomy, the Saturnalia is upon us! > You're going to ruin our crops with your attitude.
Saturne will be close to Jupiter. 21 December: very close! I will not try to interpret that. I comment Benjamin below (post that I missed) > > Am Fr, 18. Dez 2020, um 19:57, schrieb Philip Benjamin: >> [Telmo Menezes] >> “Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience >> moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can >> qualia also display unbounded complexity?” >> [Philip Benjamin] >> How will you include Augustine’s (3rd - 4 th Centuries, >> https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine) first person >> experience into your imagined universe? It was Augustine who pulled the West >> out of Greco-Roman superstitious paganism and baptized Platonism into >> Scriptural norms and thus became the architect of Western Civilization. I missed that. I think, on the contrary, that Augustine was just a christian who understood a bit of Plato (better than Aristotle) and built a christian interpretation of the three primary hypo sates of Plotinus. He was among the last non-lietraliste christians, who will disappear (exiled or persecuted) after the closure of Plato Academy. You are using “pagan” as an insult, but for a mathematical theologian, it is rather more like a quality. The “truth” in the theological field are more chance to be found in what is common to all religion, than in any particular differences. That explains also why it is interesting that incompleteness impose a precise neoplatonist-like (neopythagorean, even) theology to each arithmetically sound universal+ machine (universal+ = universal and knowing it). >> Augustine himself was a Phoenician profligate pagan with un-awakened >> consciousness who was instantly transformed into a non-pagan with awakened >> consciousness by “accidentally” listening to a child’s song Hmm... >> (https://www.midwestaugustinians.org/conversion-of-st-augustine). America is >> a product of similar “Two Great Awakenings” which are both historical and >> historic. >> [Telmo Menezes] >> “You wouldn't if you thought about the evolution of mind and how it serves >> in natural selection. Counting is very useful. Even animals do it”. >> [Philip Benjamin] >> How is Evolution qua trans-speciation is applicable to “mind”? Natural >> selection is adaptation, an informational capability that is built into the >> genetic structures which involve chemical bonds. That is an ENDOWMENT not >> EVOLUTION. Instant transformation of mind is clearly illustrated in >> Augustinian first person experience. There is no trans-speciation here form >> lower animal to a higher animal!! Sort of OK with this, once we accept that animals are person, even plant and bacteria, even if in some dissociative state. There is a common first person, universal in that sense. Somehow, Lower animal = Robinson Arithmetic. Higher animal = Peano arithmetic (and above). It is the difference between universal and universal+. RA is universal, pays the consequences, but fail to understand what is going on. PA is universal, knows it, and knows the consequences. It is incompleteness which force the (sound) machine to distinguish truth, mind, soul, the observable and the sensible. Bruno >> Philip Benjamin >> >> >> >> From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected]> >> Thursday, December 17, 2020 2:15 PM >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Consciousness and number self-reference (was Re: A universe >> where everything exists?) >> >> On 12/16/2020 11:29 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> Am Do, 17. Dez 2020, um 03:08, schrieb 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List: >> >> >> On 12/16/2020 9:20 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> Am So, 13. Dez 2020, um 17:11, schrieb Bruno Marchal: >> >> On 10 Dec 2020, at 16:14, Telmo Menezes <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Mindey asked a very interesting question, and I've been thinking about it >> while following the discussion. I don't have a good answer, but I might have >> a good question. I propose another take: the discussion so far has been in >> terms of quanta, but what if we reframed it in terms of qualia? >> >> Imagine the "universe" in terms of the set of all first-person experience >> moments of all of its inhabitants. Is there a limit to novelty here? Or can >> qualia also display unbounded complexity? >> >> >> With Mechanism, we have to separate clearly the ontology, which is given by >> the minimal things that we have to assume because we cannot derive them from >> simpler thing, and which has to be enough rich to support a universal >> machine. There is some amount of latitude here, because we can assume any >> universal machinery(*). As everyone believe already in natural numbers and >> the laws of addition and multiplication, I use them (albeit in my course I >> prefer to use the combinators, but once we have them we have the >> numbers+laws, and vice versa. >> >> Still, don't you find it incredibly strange that such a thing exists to >> being with? >> >> You wouldn't if you thought about the evolution of mind and how it serves in >> natural selection. Counting is very useful. Even animals do it. >> >> >> I am aware. What I mean is that it is incredibly strange that anything >> exists at all. >> >> >> If nothing existed that would be a contradiction in terms. :-) >> >> Brent >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB470490C05DF44BBBB815AF61A8C30%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB470490C05DF44BBBB815AF61A8C30%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5a13987a-64cb-4be8-9060-9b7faaad0858%40www.fastmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5a13987a-64cb-4be8-9060-9b7faaad0858%40www.fastmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4F4FE306-C040-4965-AC93-65F32C5ADA19%40ulb.ac.be.
