When thinking about why people value certain experiences and do certain
activities, I like Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a guideline. IOW, once
certain basic needs are met, then a person seeks to satisfy additional needs.
Which might not be higher but which might simply involve activating more of the
brain. Could it be that we're simply compelled by neural pathways in our brain
that want to be activated? Or are we simply physical organisms seeking
homeostatis all the time?
Today is Mahalakshmi day. There's a big celebration in the Dome. I haven't
decided whether I will go or not. Autumn has been so beautiful here. I feel
happy enough just glancing up from the computer once and a while, out the
window to the trees and the sky, walking to the post office, doing my everyday
tasks.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't need to go to the Dome and hopefully
get blessings from Mahalakshmi in the form of more money and then feel happier.
I am already feeling happy enough. Much much gratitude...
On Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:00 AM, "TurquoiseBee [email protected]
[FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]> wrote:
From: "Michael Jackson [email protected] [FairfieldLife]"
<[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word
It's NOT that I'm saying that seeking spiritual experiences ISN'T valuable. I'm
just pointing out that almost no one in history has ever stepped up to the
plate and made an objective, scientific case for what that value might be.
Most teachers or seekers just *assume* that these experiences they have or
claim to have had are valuable, but when called upon to do so, they can't
really produce any strong arguments for WHY they are valuable, or WHAT that
supposed value is. I'm suggesting that this oversight is epidemic in the world
of "spiritual practices," the elephant in the room that no one ever talks
about. The people promoting these practices just *assume* that these
experiences they're having or seeking are *worth* having or seeking, and debate
the supposedly best ways of achieving them. But I don't know of very many who
have taken that "step back," beyond the assumption, and have tried to make a
case for WHY they're so intent on achieving these things. What is it that they
hope to "achieve," and WHY would others want to do so?
Answers such as, "Well, I want to have these experiences because Jim Flanegin
said that I would be a low-vibe slime until I had them the way he has" do not
count. :-) :-) :-)
It's the same problem I see with religion in general. The people urging others
to join their religions don't seem to ever offer any real-world,
payoff-in-this-lifetime reasons for doing so. They just *assume* that there is
a payoff, and try to bluff their way through without ever specifying what it
is. Millions and millions of seekers over the ages, and almost none of them
have ever come up with a real *value* for all this seeking they're devoting
their lives to. I'm NOT suggesting that there isn't one, just pointing out that
no one ever seems to talk about it if there is.
From: "TurquoiseBee [email protected] [FairfieldLife]"
<[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness
From: "Xenophaneros Anartaxius [email protected] [FairfieldLife]"
<[email protected]>
From: "TurquoiseBee [email protected] [FairfieldLife]"
<[email protected]>
From: "[email protected] [FairfieldLife]" <[email protected]>
The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way
to construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that
does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous
system.
But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these "experiences
of unboundedness." That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries
of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps
everything else.
I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a
better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the
first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make
declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of "The purpose of life is to
achieve these experiences of unboundedness," which then become dogma and are
repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said
WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving.
Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these "experiences of
unboundedness" you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value,
then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them?
Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just
stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will
find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another.
I have found these experiences valuable...
HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question. DEFINE this
"value" that you have "found" in these "experiences of unboundedness." How
*exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone else's life), in objective
terms?
, but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately played out for
me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in his new book Waking Up, a
Guide to Spirituality without Religion.
And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might be
valuable.
These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having them but as
to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are told in a
particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe them if
they tend to reinforce an impacted belief system. My view, at the moment, is
the nervous system is relieving itself of something, but it is difficult to
tell just what that something is. I would say the interesting spiritual
experiences are just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so they are
not really of real import.
Then why "construct a system to give people these experiences?"
If one is seeking heaven and trying to avoid hell, one is missing the point of
the search, for the point is to discover the commonality of both, and avoid
being sucked either way.
WHY is anyone seeking *either*? And where did you make the connection between
these "experiences of unboundedness" and "heaven" or "hell?"
For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything kind of
flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in which the world,
as it always had been, was identical with what I had been seeking.
I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking about finding
alternative -- theoretically better or more benign -- methods of "giving people
these experiences of unboundedness." But it strikes me that neither of you have
ever taken a step back and told us WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these
experiences in the first place, and more important, what objective *value*
these experiences bring to your life or to the lives of others.
I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out that you and
Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of lemmings presenting
options for a new direction in which to run, without ever making a case for WHY
you are running in the first place. :-)
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