> Of course Ramana never had to deal with an Andrew Cohen or any of a
> number of Satsang Service Providers who are ready to dispense darshan
> and advice... ;-)
Sure, but the principle is the same: Its the heart which has to
confirm. He obviously did not have external tests, as according to
Advaita and the Gita there are no outward signs of enlightenment.So,
there is no way, no absolute set of tools you could apply. You may
apply your own set of criteria, but IMHO its only your innermost
feeling/heart which can tell you, and in this case there is hardly
anything you can do about it anymore.
> It may be a moot point as Ramana is of course long gone and of a
> different generation than ours.
>
> Nonetheless here's what Ramana's ashram has to say:
>
> "It is not possible to lay down clear rules to guide the
> novice in the delicate business of recognising a Sage. And it
> may be said that no rules are really necessary. He that is
> destined to find a Sage and to become his disciple will find
> no practical difficulty in recognising him when he finds him.
> For those that are not so destined, rules will be of little use.
> Divine Grace plays a decisive part in the process by which
> the Sage is recognised as such and accepted as one's own
> Guru. But when once the choice is made, the disciple can
> use the available tests of sagehood, in order to confirm his
> choice. The chief test is serenity and unruffled happiness,
> which is the same as perfect peace. Another test is
> egolessness, and this is proved chiefly by indifference to
> praise and censure, as noted before. Other tests will appear
> in the course of this exposition." from "Maha-yoga"
>
> I would be suspicious personally of any guru who did not test his
> students--but that's my own preference.
So you would be suspicious of Ramana.
> I'd also be instinctively
> suspicious of a lack of "indifference to praise and censure" by the
> person in question. Anon and I have discussed our own observations in
> this regard here.
>
> In regards to siddhis, as I believe I indicated already, that's more
> about yoga-darshana, i.e. not Advaita Vedanta.
Right, but even here, I don't see were the Yoga Darshana says Siddhis
are conditional to enlightenment, except that their achievement is
sort of constantly promised for all kinds of excerceises (Like doing
Japa a million times, etc) And there can't be even a trace of a doubt
that none of these has yet withstood scientific tests, which would
indeed revolutionize science.
Ramana Ashram is just a religious institution intent on preserving
their own heritage like so many others. I personally love them, as
when I stay there I'd rather participate in their programs (pujas) and
meditate at Virupaksha cave then attend lets say Isaac's satsangs. But
I also see clearly, that they are not the same as Ramana was. For them
the whole focus is Ramana and thats why they don't allow anybody to
teach there. Here is what Nisargadatta had to say to the nephew of
Ramana, who was once defacto president, and gives now Satsang outside
the gates of Ramana Ashram (from David Godmans webpage):
"Harriet: What was Maharaj's attitude to Ramana Maharshi and his
teachings? Did you ever discuss Bhagavan's teachings with him?
David: He had enormous respect for both his attainment and his
teachings. He once told me that one of the few regrets of his life was
that he never met him in person. He did come to the ashram in the
early 1960s with a group of his Marathi devotees. They were all on a
South Indian pilgrimage tour and Ramanasramam was one of the places he
visited.
With regard to the teachings he once told me, 'I agree with
everything that Ramana Maharshi said, with the exception of this
business of the heart-centre being on the right side of the chest. I
have never had that experience myself.'
I discussed various aspects of Bhagavan's teachings with him and
always found his answers to be very illuminating.
He asked me once, 'Have you understood Ramana Maharshi's teachings?'
Since I knew he meant 'Had I actually experienced the truth of
them?', I replied, 'The more I listen to Maharaj, the more I
understand what Bhagavan is trying to tell me'.
I felt that this was true at both the theoretical and
experiential levels. His explanations broadened and deepened my
intellectual understanding of Bhagavan's teachings and his presence
also gave me experiential glimpses of the truth that they were all
pointing towards.
I have to mention Ganesan's visit here. V. Ganesan is the
grandnephew of Ramana Maharshi and in the 1970s he was the de facto
manager of Ramanasramam. Nowadays, his elder brother Sundaram is in
charge. Ganesan came to visit Maharaj for the first time in the late
1970s. As soon as he arrived Maharaj stood up and began to collect
cushions. He made a big pile of them and made Ganesan sit on top of
the heap. Then, much to everyone's amazement, Maharaj cleared a space
on the floor and did a full-length prostration to him.
When he stood up, he told Ganesan, 'I never had a chance to
prostrate to your great-uncle Ramana Maharshi, so I am prostrating to
you instead. This is my prostration to him.'
Harriet: That's an extraordinary story! Were you there that day?
David: Yes, I was sitting just a few feet away. But the truly
extraordinary thing for me was what happened next. Maharaj and Ganesan
chatted for a while, about what I can't remember.
Then Maharaj made an astonishing offer: 'If you stay here with me
for two weeks, I guarantee you will leave in the same state as your
great-uncle Ramana Maharshi.'
Ganesan left that day and didn't come back. I couldn't believe he
had turned down an offer like that. If someone of the stature of
Maharaj had made an offer like that to me, I would have immediately
nailed myself to the floor. Nothing would have induced me to go away
before the time was up.
When I returned to Ramanasramam I asked Ganesan why he hadn't
stayed.
'I didn't think he was serious,' he replied. 'I just thought he
was joking.'
It was during this visit that Maharaj asked Ganesan to start
giving talks in Ramanasramam. 'I have been to Ramanasramam,' he said,
'and you have wonderful facilities there. Many pilgrims come, but no
one is giving them any teachings. It is a sacred and holy place but
people are leaving it and coming here because no one is teaching
there. Why should they have to travel a thousand miles to sit in this
crowded room when you have such a great place? You need to start
giving talks there. You need to start explaining what Ramana
Maharshi's teachings are.'
Ganesan was unwilling to follow that advice either, or at least
not at the time. There is a strong tradition that no one is allowed to
teach in Ramanasramam. Ramana Maharshi is still the teacher there and
no one is allowed to replace him. It is not just a question of having
a new Guru there; the ashram management does not even encourage anyone
to publicly explain what Ramana Maharshi's teachings mean. Ganesan
didn't want to rock the boat and incur the ire of his family and the
devotees who might object, so he kept quiet. It is only in the last
few years that he has started teaching, but he is doing it in his own
house, rather than in the ashram itself. The ashram is still very much
a teacher-free zone.
http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/nis2.shtml
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