--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 21, 2006, at 8:40 PM, Vaj wrote: > > > > > On Jul 21, 2006, at 7:29 PM, authfriend wrote: > > > >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajranatha@> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jul 21, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Paul Mason wrote: > >>> > >>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> I've never heard anything other than that. I never > >>>>> heard that Guru Dev himself gave MMY the technique. > >>>> > >>>> On 8th July 1971 in Amherst, U.S.A., Maharishi Mahesh Yogi made > >> the > >>>> following statement which contradicts the assumption that he never > >>>> claimed the TM technique came from Guru Dev Shankaracharya Swami > >>>> Brahmanand Saraswati. > >>>> > >>>> 'But the great impact of Guru Dev, in his lifetime, in bringing > >> out so > >>>> clearly and in such simple words, this technique of TM. And his, > >> his > >>>> blessing for, for this movement which came out much after he left > >> his > >>>> body. Because there was no, no occasion during his lifetime for, > >> for > >>>> any of his intimate blessed disciples to go out of his presence > >> and > >>>> that's why this any such movement to bless the world couldn't have > >>>> started during his time'. > >>> > >>> As has been repeated here before many times > >> > >> (Which must make it true...) > >> > >> , and also verified by > >>> Dana Sawyer in his research with SBS's sect the Dandis > >> > >> Documentation, please. On what basis was it "verified"? > > > > > > You'd have to ask Dana. He's talked to many of these guys. I have > > his article on the Dandis and it may mention it simply in passing, > > as what they do with householders. > > > > Keep in mind there are teachers in the Shank. tradition who will > > realize a certain student is ripe for non-dual meditation and teach > > them a method that isn't as dualistic as meditation with an object. > > Here's a couple comments from Dana on another list. Interestingly he > finds, as do many who've contacted me during the false idea that TM > was effortless threads, that some effort, even strenuous effort > greatly increase the experience of TC: > > >why would they learn from MMY what they can learn for free anywhere? > >Mantra japa, practiced as TMers do it, is a common practice in India. > > > > > >As you know, Maharishi taught that effortlessness the key to > successful > >practice had been lost from general practice. Are you saying, Dana, > >that "mantra japa" includes instructions for effortless practice? > > In both Hindu and Buddhist traditions there is a long standing tradition > of starting off new meditators with an easy practice. What we did/ do as > TMers is often pitched in Hinduism as the correct process for those who > chant kirtana. While the mantras are being chanted, stay with the > tones - > don't concentrate on a particular tone but keep the mind with the sound. > "What if I wander off?" It's OK, just bring your attention back to the > tones when you realize you've drifted off. I've heard this a hundred > times. By the way, it's the initial instruction for chanting given to > Hare Krishnas. The idea (whether the mantra is spoken out loud or not) > is that the special character of Sanskrit mantras will draw the mind to > the Absolute. > > BTW, in Buddhist practice - of both major traditions - concentration is > cultivated. BUT, in recognition of the difficulty of perfect > concentration, they often start students out with mantra repetition > with a > mala. Moving the beads helps keep the mind with the mantra but otherwise > the student is allowed to drift. This is a baby step toward deep > concentration for them. when it's done with breath counting, Tibetans > sometimes tell students to focus only on the inward breath and let the > mind go on the outward breath. > > Regarding the piece about needing thoughts during meditation because > they > are the products of stress relief. I've never heard that before. Perhaps > because there is no teaching about "stress release" in Hinduism or > Buddhism. MMY's concept of stress certainly grew out of the need to find > an equivalent term for samskaras - the seeds of karma that promote > action. > In both traditions the notion is that samskaras predispose our views and > behaviors and so perspective on them must be gained. In Buddhism the > idea > is to breath insight and mindfulness into them, to disentangle ourselves > from their influence. In Advaita Hinduism (including TM Hinduism), the > goal is to dissolve them by cultivating a deeper apprehension of > Brahman/ > Atman - as you know. Anyway, MMY's idea that thoughts during meditation > are indicative of these samskaras dissolving (rather than simply the > flux > of the unfocused mind) seems to be the original idea. But is it true or > only a rationalization to intice lazy Americans? I wonder. > > > > Or do you contend that effortlessness is superfluous to transcending? > > Yes, I'll make that claim - for the fun of exploring it. My > experience is > that it is possible to have the experience of what TMers call samadhi > (TC) > via a technique that uses extreme effort. During years of shammata and > zazen I had more experiences of that sort than I did during my 15 > years of > regular TM. On the other hand, I think it is very possible to do TM for > centuries and never experience samadhi. So often I used to go into this > soft, fluffy laya state and just stay there. Effortlessness certainly > doesn't guarantee a samadhi experience, and concentration doesn't > preclude > it. That's my experience. >
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