On Jul 21, 2006, at 8:40 PM, Vaj wrote:
On Jul 21, 2006, at 7:29 PM, authfriend wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajranatha@> wrote:
On Jul 21, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Paul Mason wrote:
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@>
wrote:
I've never heard anything other than that. I never
heard that Guru Dev himself gave MMY the technique.
On 8th July 1971 in Amherst, U.S.A., Maharishi Mahesh Yogi made
the
following statement which contradicts the assumption that he never
claimed the TM technique came from Guru Dev Shankaracharya Swami
Brahmanand Saraswati.
'But the great impact of Guru Dev, in his lifetime, in bringing
out so
clearly and in such simple words, this technique of TM. And his,
his
blessing for, for this movement which came out much after he left
his
body. Because there was no, no occasion during his lifetime for,
for
any of his intimate blessed disciples to go out of his presence
and
that's why this any such movement to bless the world couldn't have
started during his time'.
As has been repeated here before many times
(Which must make it true...)
, and also verified by
Dana Sawyer in his research with SBS's sect the Dandis
Documentation, please. On what basis was it "verified"?
You'd have to ask Dana. He's talked to many of these guys. I have
his article on the Dandis and it may mention it simply in passing,
as what they do with householders.
Keep in mind there are teachers in the Shank. tradition who will
realize a certain student is ripe for non-dual meditation and teach
them a method that isn't as dualistic as meditation with an object.
Here's a couple comments from Dana on another list. Interestingly he
finds, as do many who've contacted me during the false idea that TM
was effortless threads, that some effort, even strenuous effort
greatly increase the experience of TC:
why would they learn from MMY what they can learn for free anywhere?
Mantra japa, practiced as TMers do it, is a common practice in India.
As you know, Maharishi taught that effortlessness — the key to
successful
practice — had been lost from general practice. Are you saying, Dana,
that "mantra japa" includes instructions for effortless practice?
In both Hindu and Buddhist traditions there is a long standing tradition
of starting off new meditators with an easy practice. What we did/ do as
TMers is often pitched in Hinduism as the correct process for those who
chant kirtana. While the mantras are being chanted, stay with the
tones -
don't concentrate on a particular tone but keep the mind with the sound.
"What if I wander off?" It's OK, just bring your attention back to the
tones when you realize you've drifted off. I've heard this a hundred
times. By the way, it's the initial instruction for chanting given to
Hare Krishnas. The idea (whether the mantra is spoken out loud or not)
is that the special character of Sanskrit mantras will draw the mind to
the Absolute.
BTW, in Buddhist practice - of both major traditions - concentration is
cultivated. BUT, in recognition of the difficulty of perfect
concentration, they often start students out with mantra repetition
with a
mala. Moving the beads helps keep the mind with the mantra but otherwise
the student is allowed to drift. This is a baby step toward deep
concentration for them. when it's done with breath counting, Tibetans
sometimes tell students to focus only on the inward breath and let the
mind go on the outward breath.
Regarding the piece about needing thoughts during meditation because
they
are the products of stress relief. I've never heard that before. Perhaps
because there is no teaching about "stress release" in Hinduism or
Buddhism. MMY's concept of stress certainly grew out of the need to find
an equivalent term for samskaras - the seeds of karma that promote
action.
In both traditions the notion is that samskaras predispose our views and
behaviors and so perspective on them must be gained. In Buddhism the
idea
is to breath insight and mindfulness into them, to disentangle ourselves
from their influence. In Advaita Hinduism (including TM Hinduism), the
goal is to dissolve them by cultivating a deeper apprehension of
Brahman/
Atman - as you know. Anyway, MMY's idea that thoughts during meditation
are indicative of these samskaras dissolving (rather than simply the
flux
of the unfocused mind) seems to be the original idea. But is it true or
only a rationalization to intice lazy Americans? I wonder.
Or do you contend that effortlessness is superfluous to transcending?
Yes, I'll make that claim - for the fun of exploring it. My
experience is
that it is possible to have the experience of what TMers call samadhi
(TC)
via a technique that uses extreme effort. During years of shammata and
zazen I had more experiences of that sort than I did during my 15
years of
regular TM. On the other hand, I think it is very possible to do TM for
centuries and never experience samadhi. So often I used to go into this
soft, fluffy laya state and just stay there. Effortlessness certainly
doesn't guarantee a samadhi experience, and concentration doesn't
preclude
it. That's my experience.
