--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jul 21, 2006, at 10:48 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajranatha@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jul 21, 2006, at 8:40 PM, Vaj wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Jul 21, 2006, at 7:29 PM, authfriend wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajranatha@> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jul 21, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Paul Mason wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I've never heard anything other than that.  I never
> >>>>>>> heard that Guru Dev himself gave MMY the technique.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  On 8th July 1971 in Amherst, U.S.A., Maharishi Mahesh Yogi made
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> following statement which contradicts the assumption that he  
> >>>>>> never
> >>>>>> claimed the TM technique came from Guru Dev Shankaracharya Swami
> >>>>>> Brahmanand Saraswati.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 'But the great impact of Guru Dev, in his lifetime, in bringing
> >>>> out so
> >>>>>> clearly and in such simple words, this technique of TM. And his,
> >>>> his
> >>>>>> blessing for, for this movement which came out much after he left
> >>>> his
> >>>>>> body. Because there was no, no occasion during his lifetime for,
> >>>> for
> >>>>>> any of his intimate blessed disciples to go out of his presence
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> that's why this any such movement to bless the world couldn't  
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>> started during his time'.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As has been repeated here before many times
> >>>>
> >>>> (Which must make it true...)
> >>>>
> >>>> , and also verified by
> >>>>> Dana Sawyer in his research with SBS's sect the Dandis
> >>>>
> >>>> Documentation, please.  On what basis was it "verified"?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You'd have to ask Dana. He's talked to many of these guys. I have
> >>> his article on the Dandis and it may mention it simply in passing,
> >>> as what they do with householders.
> >>>
> >>> Keep in mind there are teachers in the Shank. tradition who will
> >>> realize a certain student is ripe for non-dual meditation and teach
> >>> them a method that isn't as dualistic as meditation with an object.
> >>
> >> Here's a couple comments from Dana on another list. Interestingly he
> >> finds, as do many who've contacted me during the false idea that TM
> >> was effortless threads, that some effort, even strenuous effort
> >> greatly increase the experience of TC:
> >>
> >>> why would they learn from MMY what they can learn for free anywhere?
> >>> Mantra japa, practiced as TMers do it, is a common practice in  
> >>> India.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> As you know, Maharishi taught that effortlessness — the key to
> >> successful
> >>> practice — had been lost from general practice. Are you saying,  
> >>> Dana,
> >>> that "mantra japa" includes instructions for effortless practice?
> >>
> >> In both Hindu and Buddhist traditions there is a long standing  
> >> tradition
> >> of starting off new meditators with an easy practice. What we did/  
> >> do as
> >> TMers is often pitched in Hinduism as the correct process for  
> >> those who
> >> chant kirtana. While the mantras are being chanted, stay with the
> >> tones -
> >> don't concentrate on a particular tone but keep the mind with the  
> >> sound.
> >> "What if I wander off?" It's OK, just bring your attention back to  
> >> the
> >> tones when you realize you've drifted off. I've heard this a hundred
> >> times. By the way, it's the initial instruction for chanting given to
> >> Hare Krishnas. The idea (whether the mantra is spoken out loud or  
> >> not)
> >> is that the special character of Sanskrit mantras will draw the  
> >> mind to
> >> the Absolute.
> >>
> >> BTW, in Buddhist practice - of both major traditions -  
> >> concentration is
> >> cultivated. BUT, in recognition of the difficulty of perfect
> >> concentration, they often start students out with mantra repetition
> >> with a
> >> mala. Moving the beads helps keep the mind with the mantra but  
> >> otherwise
> >> the student is allowed to drift. This is a baby step toward deep
> >> concentration for them. when it's done with breath counting, Tibetans
> >> sometimes tell students to focus only on the inward breath and let  
> >> the
> >> mind go on the outward breath.
> >>
> >> Regarding the piece about needing thoughts during meditation because
> >> they
> >> are the products of stress relief. I've never heard that before.  
> >> Perhaps
> >> because there is no teaching about "stress release" in Hinduism or
> >> Buddhism. MMY's concept of stress certainly grew out of the need  
> >> to find
> >> an equivalent term for samskaras - the seeds of karma that promote
> >> action.
> >> In both traditions the notion is that samskaras predispose our  
> >> views and
> >> behaviors and so perspective on them must be gained. In Buddhism the
> >> idea
> >> is to breath insight and mindfulness into them, to disentangle  
> >> ourselves
> >> from their influence. In Advaita Hinduism (including TM Hinduism),  
> >> the
> >> goal is to dissolve them by cultivating a deeper apprehension of
> >> Brahman/
> >> Atman - as you know. Anyway, MMY's idea that thoughts during  
> >> meditation
> >> are indicative of these samskaras dissolving (rather than simply the
> >> flux
> >> of the unfocused mind) seems to be the original idea. But is it  
> >> true or
> >> only a rationalization to intice lazy Americans? I wonder.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Or do you contend that effortlessness is superfluous to  
> >>> transcending?
> >>
> >> Yes, I'll make that claim - for the fun of exploring it. My
> >> experience is
> >> that it is possible to have the experience of what TMers call samadhi
> >> (TC)
> >> via a technique that uses extreme effort. During years of shammata  
> >> and
> >> zazen I had more experiences of that sort than I did during my 15
> >> years of
> >> regular TM. On the other hand, I think it is very possible to do  
> >> TM for
> >> centuries and never experience samadhi. So often I used to go into  
> >> this
> >> soft, fluffy laya state and just stay there. Effortlessness certainly
> >> doesn't guarantee a samadhi experience, and concentration doesn't
> >> preclude
> >> it. That's my experience.
> >>
> >
> > How do you know you're in samadhi, either via TM or some other  
> > technique?
> 
> Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs.
>

Of course there are...







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