--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hermandan0 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > trying to follow new.mornings posting inspirations, i've started a 
> new
> > thread instead of intjecting this into the old one :)
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "vajradhatu108" 
> > 
> > <snip> 
> > > > Any meditation technique that relies on a object
> > > > of meditation, a mantra, the breath, etc. will by
> > > > it's very nature have some subtle effort (as Mahesh
> > > > acknowledged at Estes Park in regard to TM).* 
> > > 
> > > Of course, it's never been established that what he
> > > said at Estes Park ever "acknowledged" any such
> > > thing.
> > 
> > I'm not sure exactly what the Estes Park quote is,
> Quoting an earlier post from Vaj:
> "At Estes Park Maharishi pointed out that there really
> was some effort in TM. He quoted the Vedas as saying,
> 'Be easy to us with gentle effort.'"
> Obviously we'd need a great deal more context to
> know whether Maharishi was using this quote to
> describe TM as involving some effort.  Who is being
> addressed in the quote?  It appears to be a request
> of some kind, but who is making the request, and
> of whom?  And how would one entity making a request
> of another entity to "be easy to us" relate to TM?
> There may be some connection, but it certainly isn't
> obvious without the context.
>  but
> > Maharishi was quite clear that there is some "doing" in
> > the thinking/picking up of the mantra and that, yes, this
> > is a contradictory to the mantra just appearing on its
> > own. That's why the the instruction to think or pick up
> > the mantra is qualified by saying "effortlessy" or "as
> > effortessly as a thought comes". Of course one is thinking
> > and of course thinking is doing. It may be an effortless
> > doing, but it's a doing.
> I think there may be a semantic issue here with
> regard to "doing."  If, as you say, "doing" can be
> effortless, it seems like a distinction without a
> difference.
> > While it may not be fair to dismiss TM as being a technique
> > of "effort" on account of that, vaj is, IMO, not incorrect
> > in calling it "subtle effort" becaue of that doing.
> Well, but is it effortless, as you say, or is it
> "subtle effort"?  *That* is a distinction that makes
> a *huge* difference.
> MMY has also been very clear that even "subtle effort"
> interferes with transcending, so again there would
> appear to be a semantic issue.
> > To misunderstand this puts one
> > in the position of a meditator I once encountered who asked "What
> > happens if you sit there for the entire 20 minutes and the mantra
> > doesn't come?" Duh.
> In my understanding, intentionally picking up the
> mantra is done only when the mantra does not come
> on its own.
> In my experience, the recognition that I am not
> thinking the mantra arises spontaneously, without
> any intention or "mindfulness"; and the mantra
> is there, also spontaneously, immediately following
> that recognition.  At that point it would require
> effort *not* to think the mantra.

My "expreience" is that often, the recognition that I'm not thinking the mantra 
IS the 
mantra at some level.

> This may not be what occurs for beginning TMers,
> but I'd suggest that it becomes the case, for
> most people, at least, after some experience of
> TM practice.

I suspect that this is the case for ALL people, even total beginners--it seems 
to be how my 
mind WORKS (in the non-effort sense)--but that they 1) don't trust themselves 
and 2) 
haven't gained sufficient sensativity to their own throught-processes to notice 
the mantra 
at the spontaneous level and/or insist on it being loud.

Fred Travis' work on the subject of beginners vs advanced medtators shows that 
primary EEG changes during TM happen within the first 4 months. After that, its 
just a 
matter of repeating the wash/rinse cycle. The measureable long-term changes in 
meditators happen OUTSIDE meditation, not inside.

Now,this may be because our measures are too crude to note subtle changes, but 
it is 
suggestive of how fast someone becomes an "expert" TMer also.

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