--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hermandan0 <no_reply@> wrote: > <snip> > > Whatever the provenance of the Estes Park quote and whether it > > is referring to effortless thinking of the mantra, Maharishi > > still said what I'm saying he did. Sorry, I can't quote you the > > exact tape but it was one of the ushers on the course who raised > > the point that thoughts just come into his head spontaneously > > and randomly, but the mantra *gets* thought and that seems to be > > a contradiction. MMY laughed and agreed it was a contradiction, > > resloving it in the way I explained. > > I'm not challenging that at all, except to say that > after some experience of TM, the mantra no longer > "gets thought" but arises spontaneously, just like > any other thought. > > > > but > > > > Maharishi was quite clear that there is some "doing" in > > > > the thinking/picking up of the mantra and that, yes, this > > > > is a contradictory to the mantra just appearing on its > > > > own. That's why the the instruction to think or pick up > > > > the mantra is qualified by saying "effortlessy" or "as > > > > effortessly as a thought comes". Of course one is thinking > > > > and of course thinking is doing. It may be an effortless > > > > doing, but it's a doing. > > > > > > I think there may be a semantic issue here with > > > regard to "doing." If, as you say, "doing" can be > > > effortless, it seems like a distinction without a > > > difference. > > > > That's a good part of my point. The issue is largely semantic and > > that's why I said that IMO "it is not incorrect" to word it the way > > Vaj does. It's not a reason for denying the point. > > If by "subtle effort" he means "effortless doing," > then I wouldn't disagree with him. But I don't think > that's what he means. Remember he also says there is > "mindfulness" involved in realizing one isn't thinking > the mantra. >
Gotta "be vigilant in order to not be lost in thoughts" to quote a prominent Buddhist meditation teacher. And yet, getting lost in thoughts or falling asleep (another big no-no according to this teacher) are perfectly OK. If something wasn't OK, you'd be tryng to avoid it, eh? > <snip> > > > In my understanding, intentionally picking up the > > > mantra is done only when the mantra does not come > > > on its own. > > > > Coming on its own is effortless thinking, yes. But if > > it doesn't come on its own you pick it up--effortlessly. > > Right. That's the instruction for when it doesn't > come on its own. > > > > In my experience, the recognition that I am not > > > thinking the mantra arises spontaneously, without > > > any intention or "mindfulness"; and the mantra > > > is there, also spontaneously, immediately following > > > that recognition. At that point it would require > > > effort *not* to think the mantra. > > > > > > This may not be what occurs for beginning TMers, > > > but I'd suggest that it becomes the case, for > > > most people, at least, after some experience of > > > TM practice. > > > > Sure, the *effortless thinking* of the mantra becomes a > > well-established habit. But it is still thinking/picking > > up the mantra. > > But there's no *volition* involved. The thought > of no-mantra automatically invokes the thought of > mantra (sort of like "Don't think of an elephant"): > No mantra...mantra...mantra...mantra... > And if it somehw doesn't (at some extremely subtle, even inarticulateable level), than you deliberately think the mantra in some way. The thought OF the mantra, IS the mantra, so this seldom happens, in my experience. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
