> > I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far 
> as I know Howard
> > is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring 
> as you say.  I see
> > no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish 
> Hivemind and
> > build a community.  

That's what is, in fact, surprising to me ... a small community for HiveMind formed 
pretty much
spontaneously. Like Tapestry, the bulk of the code is from me, but some very 
significant design
ideas, naming conventions and techniques have come form the community and/or been 
voted on by the
nascent community.

> What I would like to do is to hear from Howard himself (or anyone 
> working on the HiveMind project)!  I'm particularly interested in how 
> Avalon can leverage some of the technologies in HiveMind, and I'm 
> equally confident in the ability of Avalon to provide 
> value-add to the 
> HimeMind project - and I'm not talking about classic avalon component 
> interfaces - I'm talking about generic container-side facilities.
> The is a potential for mutual benefit.
> Isn't that worth exploring?

I aggree with Andy's comments below ... you can't "incubate" HiveMind inside Avalon. 
My Blob
(http://javatapestry.blogspot.com) discusses this as well, with some other insights 
(partly into my
own neuroticism).

> Avalon is a community - and within that community is an effort to 
> harmonize different directions in component models taking 
> into account 
> the differences across internal development, and external iniatives. 
> HiveMind is another aspect in that picture.  This means more 
> potential, 
> leveraged code, skills, knowledge, users, etc.  I happen to 
> think that 
> there is potential in getting together and talking about things like 
> leverage, synergy, projects, etc.

I've considered HiveMind an experiment, and experiment that concludes when the 
community is formed
and the code is mature. The nature of open source and the ASL is very fluid; the best 
ideas from
HiveMind can be cherry-picked from the mature codebase. What I'm nervous about is 
bringing HiveMind
into Avalon and mucking up other people's code with my vision.

> > While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
> > building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not 
> ready for Avalon
> > either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and 
> I doubt Howard
> > would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry 
> at jakarta
> > commons or some place appropriate for starting a community. 
>  Obviously it
> > should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  
> Howard is
> > obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator 
> himself (as I've
> > pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, 
> I'd rather focus my
> > efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of 
> bureaucratic
> > procedure again**).

Well, the incubator will be a challenge but there will be explicit rules for leaving 
incubation and
I won't tolerate the incubators going beyond their mandate. The mandate is to show an 
community working together and to ensure that there are no IP problems in HiveMind or 
its depdendant
libraries. We will ensure that the mandate and exit rules are explicit before we 

> Howard - can you do me a favour and kick of a thread actually 
> detailing 
> what we want - and throw into it what you think or don't 
> think  should 
> be your relationship with Avalon.  Please keep in mind that 
> everything 
> I've seen so far suggests that you have a 12-18 out-of-date 
> picture of 
> what avalon is and what avalon is doing - and I want to clear 
> that up. 
> I suggested you post a message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] as part of the 
> process. I 
> still think that that the right place to discuss this.

I have a backlog of avalon-dev mail to catch up on.

> As an Avalon principal, I can assure you that Avalon is not a 
> threat to 
> the potential of an independent HiveMind project (irrespective of 
> Andrew's ideas of reality).  Start talking with us (here or 
> there) and 
> you may find an ally.

Of course, while the HiveMind IP fiasco resolves itself, I have some spare time to 
catch up. To be
honest, one of the things that has been an issue for me is the Avalon documentation; 
many of my
questions aren't resolved by the docs I could find, and I have been short on time for 
wading into
the code.


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