Andrew C. Oliver wrote in haste:
I say
that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he
wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally,
I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if
his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage
him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.

Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a
number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful
that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of
opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise
(just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the
content and knowlege from the HiveMind team).  As far as I can se the
question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no
discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon.

I think  it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual
interests - don't you?

I feel a Jon coming on. "Your itch not mine" -- However, after your private
rants to (at?) me I kind of doubt how genuine this much more eloquent email


Andrew, you stooping at little low even by your standards.


Don't worry, you'll get a chance to express your yourself!

But let's not miss the the question "I think it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual interests - don't you?". You claim is that this is my itch - not yours. My claim is that this is a community itch - not something personal.

There is a potential benefit here!
Isn't this worth exploring?

In truth, a rather virgin Hivemind would (ironically considering the
name) be consumed by Avalon rather than affecting Avalon.

Maybe you may have a disconnected idea of what Avalon is and what it is doing. If you take a look at the archives you will see some posts addressing the HimeMind project both before and after this thread was initiated. What you will see is technical and community issues being raised and discussed. One thing is clear - avalon is not a candidate incubator for HiveMind - avalon is about a single product. Does that imply consumption? Yes - if consumption were appropriate - the majority of opinion over at avalon is that it is not.

You may find
emailing me personally to be rather disappointing as I say pretty much the
same things though sometimes more succinctly.  Personally, I feel your
effort is more likely intent to prevent an alternative to Avalon.

You sinking down low again!

You made some assertions implying that Avalon considered itself as an only solution (you opinion). You went on presented a (weak) justification for that position. My personal email to you expressed my personal opinion concerning, you inaccuracy of the assertions, my confusion pertaining to you justification, and my request for an explanation.

Instead of attempting to sidetrack the discussion around Andrew and his personal in-tray - lets focus on the HiveMind community and its role/relevance/synergy within the Apache community. I figure that there is value to be gained - but value requires dialogue and interaction.

So far there has not been no dialogue nor interaction.
That's the issue to address today.

I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard
is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say. I see
no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and
build a community.

What I would like to do is to hear from Howard himself (or anyone working on the HiveMind project)! I'm particularly interested in how Avalon can leverage some of the technologies in HiveMind, and I'm equally confident in the ability of Avalon to provide value-add to the HimeMind project - and I'm not talking about classic avalon component interfaces - I'm talking about generic container-side facilities.

The is a potential for mutual benefit.
Isn't that worth exploring?

I do however apologize for attributing the email containing the following
statement to you.  It was actually from Danny Angus, however the sentiment
appears to coincide with yours wouldn't you agree?

"The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
If you see what I mean."


I personally don't look at Avalon as the end game. Avalon is a community of people who happen to be focussed on this subject area. There is a lot of stuff happening in this domain. Avalon is rapidly evolving and incorporating new ideas and solutions from users such as Dany (and hundreds of others) combined with multiple external projects in the same area.

Avalon is a community - and within that community is an effort to harmonize different directions in component models taking into account the differences across internal development, and external iniatives. HiveMind is another aspect in that picture. This means more potential, leveraged code, skills, knowledge, users, etc. I happen to think that there is potential in getting together and talking about things like leverage, synergy, projects, etc.

The truth is that the Avalon "brand" is nothing to be sought while Jakarta

That kind of conflicts with the information I have. If I look back over the last few months I'm seeing growth rates on end-user adoption close to 100% growth per month. I don't have details on "brand" awareness - but I do know that there are a large number of users that are finding substantive value in the solutions that Avalon provides. From my point of view it seems that maybe avalon is doing something right with respect to the delivery of solutions.

But yes, I agree that they could do more on the brand management side.

Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community
more difficult.

Please recognize that you and you alone are somewhat preoccupied with this notion of consumption by Avalon. So lets move on from this and look at realities.

Avalon is not about hosting container X, container, Y, container Z. Instead avalon is dealing with the identification of real needs and resolution of how these needs can be addressed under a consistent component model. This does not explicitly exclude or embrace other initiatives - instead is a much more pragmatic process. Stuff emerges, products evolve, value is delivered. That process is interesting - and much more interesting than a particular product at a particular snapshot in time.

While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon
either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard
would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta
commons or some place appropriate for starting a community.  Obviously it
should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  Howard is
obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator himself (as I've
pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, I'd rather focus my
efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of bureaucratic
procedure again**).

I do not see a reason while my stating this creates the level of personal
angst for you that it more obviously did in your private mails to me nor do
I see the need for the duplicity of posting a more frank and angry mail to
me followed by one also on the list.


I know that you can do a lot better than to criticize a project just because your not interested in. My "frank" comments (as you like to call them) were raising concerns that I had on what I perceived to be some basic misconceptions you had, apparently continue to hold, and are choosing to promote in a public forum. I chose to direct that to you personally in order to understand where you are coming from (which in a round about way you have answered in your private replies to me - which as a matter of principal I will not disclose here).

Frankly, I don't think your winning any points by raising the subject of a private thread - but I do congratulate you on an valiant attempt at trying.


Bottom line - this thread isn't about your In-Tray - its about HiveMind and understanding how it can potentially mesh (or not mesh) with existing initiatives - and how it could be viable (or not viable) as a project here at Apache.

Howard - can you do me a favour and kick of a thread actually detailing what we want - and throw into it what you think or don't think should be your relationship with Avalon. Please keep in mind that everything I've seen so far suggests that you have a 12-18 out-of-date picture of what avalon is and what avalon is doing - and I want to clear that up. I suggested you post a message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] as part of the process. I still think that that the right place to discuss this.

As an Avalon principal, I can assure you that Avalon is not a threat to the potential of an independent HiveMind project (irrespective of Andrew's ideas of reality). Start talking with us (here or there) and you may find an ally.

Over to you.


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