Hello Folks 

Yes, as Sven points out we can include GtkXmHtml and we can make a wiser
configure script.

The other part is that I just don't want to spend my free time to make a
help system that is not a part of std Gimp. I mean it's totally idiotic to
say "well if you want help ..." . When people want help, they want it
ASAP not ALAP (as late as possible). 

On to the real tough question "to be or not to be UI consistent" ;-)

Well Sven started a really nicely modkey thing (Shame on me since I said
that I would help him doing it :-(. 

Well as Sven said it's a total mess! There are two ways do a "mod" key
clean up. One we study the material and come up with our own list or we
use e.g Photoshops. The reason to use PS once is (as said in a earlier
mails) that the Adobe have done some serious usability test and found out
what is really good and user friedly.

The problem is that PS lacks some functions that Gimp has most notably the
line preview when you draw in Gimp. PS can only do line painting in hor or
vert mode plus arbitrary lines and all of them without preview.

There are also some other misc funcs that can't be directly translated. My
suggestion is to use PS mod and extend it to fit Gimp specific functions. 

Well, I said to Sven that I would make a suggestion about the UI and all
the rest ;-).

Here is my list of minor things to clean up and make better (Without
breaking the freeze). First the list and then the discussion below it.

  * Use PS mod and extend it to fit Gimp specific functions.

  * Don't install any scripts by default (This means all scripts even
    Script-Fu scripts)
        * Make a script pkg with Script-Fu, Perl-Fu and Py-Fu scripts
        * Keep both Perl and Python as a part of std Gimp
        * Exception install copy-visible --> <image>/copy/
                   install drop-shadow --> <image>/filter/render/shadow
                   install perspective-shadow -->  \
  * The Script Pack
        * Make all small script "undo enabled"
                * Install those script in a sensible location
                  not just under a general Script entry
        * All Script in Xtns should be under ZZZZZZ-Fu
          (ZZZ == Lang)
        * All Script in <image> menu that aren't undo able
          should be under ZZZZZ-Fu (ZZZZZ == Lang)
        * Make the Script packs install script control your 
          config and only installscripts that works
        * Make it possible to e.g only install Perl-Script or e.g
          logo-scripts etc.
  * Move/transform selections
        * Change move selection to actually move the selection
          (i.e make Gimp PS compatible)
        * Make Move <Alt> behave as old Gimp move 
        * Postpone trans selections to next Gimp rel (i.e 1.3)

  * Make all numeric input fields spin-button aware
        (Well Mitch wanted to do the job ;-)

  * Make the Info window auto aware (i.e switch to the active image)
        * If possible add status bar and measure info to Info Window

  * Make the Undo history window auto aware

  * Make the Navigation window auto aware

  * Reconstruct the menu structure 

        Core gimp funcs 

                Image menu
                           |            RGB
                           |            Grayscale
                           |            Indexed
                           |            Compose
                           |            Decompose
                           |    ColorBalance
                           |    Hue-Saturation
                           |    Brightness-Contrast
                           |    Threshold
                           |    Levels
                           |    Curves
                           |    ------
                           |    Desaturate
                           |    Posterize
                           |    Invert
                           |    ------
                           |    Auto ----------|
                           |    ------         Equalize
                           |    Colormap Rota  Auto-Stretch Contrast
                           |    Filter Pack    Auto-Stretch HSV         
                           |                   Color Enhance
                        Alpha (the same)        
                           |       Offset
                           |       (Remove layer)
                           |       Auto-crop    
                           |       Guillotine
                           |       Image -- Rotate (270/90)
                           |       Rotate (no layer option)
                           |       Zealous Crop
                        Resize      could be named Canvas size
                        Scale Image could be named Image size
                        Save palette

                Edit Menu
                                Undo history (not happy with this one)
                                Paste into  
                                Paste as new
                                -----           Cut Named
                                Clear           Copy Named
                                Fill            Paste Named     
                                Copy Visible
                Layer Menu (Image and dialog)
                                Layers & Channels
                                Layer--Rotate (270/90)
                                Rotate (no image option)
                                Same as before

                Filter Menu
                                Repeat last
                                Re-show last
                                Filter all layers
                                Animation (The same except Filter all ...)
                                |               Apply Canvas
                                |               Cubism
                                |               GimpPressionist
                                |               Mosaic
                                |               Oilify
                                Blur (the same)
                                |               Map-----|
                                |               |       Adjust Fgrd-Bkgrd
                                |               |       Alien Map[ 2]
                                |               |       Color Exchange
                                |               |       Color Mapping
                                |               |       Gradient Map
                                |               |       Sample Colorize
                                |               |
                                |               Border Average
                                |               Colorify
                                |               Hot
                                |               Max RGB
                                |               SmoothPalette                   
                                |               Value Invert
                                Combine (the same)
                                Distort (the same but add Newsprint)
                                Edge-Detect (the same)
                                Enhance (the same)
                                Generic (the same)
                                Map (the same but add LIC and Warp)
                                Misc (the same)
                                |       Hurl
                                |       Noisify
                                |       Pick
                                |       Scatter HSV
                                |       Slur
                                |       Spread
                                |       Pattern-|
                                |       |       CML
                                |       |       Checkerboard
                                |       |       Diffraction
                                |       |       Fractal Expl
                                |       |       Grid
                                |       |       Maze
                                |       |       Qbist
                                |       |       Sinus
                                |       |
                                |       Nature--|
                                |       |       Flame
                                |       |       IFS Compose
                                |       |
                                |       Clouds-|
                                |       |       Plasma
                                |       |       Solid Noise
                                |       |
                                |       Shadow--|
                                |       |       See above (script)
                                |       Dyntext
                                |       Gfig
                                |       Jigsaw
                                |       SphereDesigner
                                Toys (the same ;-)
                File Menu Image
                Remove Preference

                File Menu Toolbox
                                Acquire (We have to tell SANE)  
                                Doc Hist
                Xtns Menu

                                Module Browser
                                DB Explorer
                                Plugin Details

                Help Menu
                                Context Help (Shift-F1)
                                Tip of the day
                Select Menu
                (the same)
                (the same)              

Hmm a lot? Well most of it is just cosmetics i.e changing paths in the
menu structures and Svens mod/short cut keys.

Why? Change the menu structure. Well to me it's not totally logic at this
point. It also has some flaws that some commands aren't grouped even if
they are used in similar tasks.

Take the rotate layer stuff, it is clearly only used to manipulate layers,
so why do I have to go into the <image>/image menu?

Similar why is not Copy and Copy Named in the same group. Making Copy,
Cut, Paste -Named as a sub /Buffer/ entry in the Copy,Cut and Paste group
is very logical. It's a "Buffer" commands that you use just as you
use Copy, Cut and Paste. You may argue that making a sub entry
will make the menu structure muddled. Well it may be, but it will be
logical and you will be able to find your commands quicker. A newcomer
will also understand what the commands are all about.

Making Gimp more Photoshop friendly (i.e use some of it's mod/short cut
keys) will only benefit Gimp. First of all they are user friendly (Adobe
has as said before made studies about it). People used to PS at e.g at
work will easily adopt to Gimp for home use. You can also say that a
student of media (and user of PS) will easily switch to Gimp. This may be
one of the reasons why she tend to use Gimp in his own workshop since it
is a good program, easy to use and it much cheaper then PS.   

Well over to the non cosmetic part. 

Scripts? Well why move nearly every one of them out of Gimp? Well I
think most users only want some of them. I mean if you install
all scripts - Gimp's menu structure will be expanded by "two",
making it even more bulky to work with. The fact that
small scripts that can be "undo awar"e are placed in non logical place
(i.e under Script-XX. Makes scripts even more messy to use.

Furthermore it will solve the Perl thing, i.e the Script Manager (which is
a install script) can only install script that works. If the "Script
Manager" is smart enough we can make options what type of scripts the user
wants to install (not just Perl/Python/Script-Fu) but the type of script
e.g layer operation scripts, render scripts, logo scripts etc.

Selections? I will not comment much here, it's very discussed in earlier
mails. It is as pointed ut by others it's not  that wise to do  much
code changes at this stage. We just have to drop the trans selection stuff
and tell users about it in the Help system. However the behavior of moving
selections is not a big code change and is IMHO a mandatory thing to

Info/Nav/Undo -Windows? Not having those dialogs auto aware is a sure
call to make the user confused. She will very likely do the wrong Undo
step just because he had that window open for another image. The same will
happen to both the Info and the Nav -Windows. We can just hope that this
isn't a big change. It is definitely a needed one if we want to have a
user friendly UI. (Well we can do a lot of UI improvements but that can wait
until the next Gimp rel).
My hope is that the discussion about this change wouldn't turn into a never
endless mail story. Instead focus on the things that you think is totally
insane. To all of you silent yes sayers please write at least one mail
and say YES otherwise it's quite hard to know if you support the
suggestion. (Well under the circumstances that you aren't all against this 
and that there isn't any supporters of this mail). 

Cheers Olof
PS: Sven I think this need to be added to your list.

              <Shift>  zoom out
--->          <Ctrl>   zoom in  

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Sven Neumann wrote:

> Hi,
> > The idea of a help system as part of GIMP sounded interesting and I had
> > hoped to try it out and comment on it but I now discover I won't be able 
> > to do so.
> There are many things you can do about this: 
> - Install the gnome-libs package. This will not change your desktop into 
>   a gnome one, but install a set of useful libraries that you will want 
>   to use anyway sooner or later. I must admit that this is not a solution
>   for non-Linux users as getting gnome-libs to compile is not trivial.
> - Grab GtkXmHtml seperately. This is difficult at the moment, but I was 
>   told that the gEdit application offers a seperately bundled one.
> - Help us to make a seperate version of GtkXmHtml that compiles on a lot
>   of setups and fix the Gimp configure script.
> Salut, Sven

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