Thank you, John. I only needed a few records investigated of Goans who had
travelled to Zanzibar in the 1800s and then out of curiosity I started to
randomly look at records which are online. There is an absolute feast of
information in these records one can draw on, such as was the child baptised at
home or at the parish, on one record, the child was so much in danger, the
mid-wife baptised him. Then there are occupations, godparents, parentage. The
detail is not consistent throughout Goa. Later records, that is mid-19th
century onwards have more detail than prior.
Unfortunately, some enquiries from me to my researcher came back as book too
degraded or book under reconstruction or book missing. I don't want to restart
this conversation but we Goans must do something to preserve those records, I
just don't know what.
Take care,Selma
On Sunday, 25 June 2023 at 00:12:28 BST, John Nazareth
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Selma
When I first went through these records I was concentrating on specific areas
to be able to trace my family tree.
I had limited time in the Panjim Archives and did not concentrate on the
professions of the people as given.
And I was learning Portuguese (the critical words) on the fly.
Many of them were not at all specific – it was as if they were going through
the motions and were giving very general professions such as “employees”. For
women, they would say “domestics” or “landowners”. I did notice that a lot of
people from Sao Matias (AKA Malar) of Divar has “musician” as a profession.
I am amazed at how much can be done with these records. One friend wanted to do
some life expectancy studies.
It looks like one has to go back over old records a number of times to get more
info.
I first started learning Portuguese to look over records in the Panjim Archives
in 2007.
When I came back to Toronto I wrote up some notes, critical words to guide me.
So when I went back over the same books in 2016 I found 3 times more records of
interest just to trace my family tree.
Now I see that we could go back to look at other elements of interest.
That is why it is so important to have these records digitized.
John
From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2023 12:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
Dear John,
Since you've been through 100s of these certificates, perhaps you care to
hazard a guess as to how these terms were used in 19th century Goa and if at
all they corresponded to caste. The other genealogist I work with and our
common friend says they are difficult to put into context or draw some sort of
coherent conclusion. Certainly, a job for the academics.
Take care,
Selma
On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 05:11:36 BST, John Nazareth
<[email protected]> wrote:
For what it’s worth, here is a translation of terms from Google Translate that
gives us a hint of how the terms might be used (as there is overlap)
employee
empregado, funcionário
servant
servo, criado, servidor, empregado, funcionário, criada
clerk
funcionário, balconista, escriturário, empregado, empregado de escritório,
sacristão
porter
porteiro, carregador, bagageiro, empregado, cabineiro, cerveja preta tipo porter
menial
criado, capacho, servo, lacaio, empregado, pessoa servil
shop assistant
caixeiro, empregado, empregada
perquisite
gratificação, privilégio, emolumentos, empregado
door's-man
porteiro, carregador, empregado
adjective
servant
empregado
appointed
empregado
journalist
jornalista
newsboy
jornaleiro
Regards
John
From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
Thanks much, Alan.
Take care,
Selma
On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 02:09:26 BST, alan machado
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Selma
Just saw this
If it is of any help, Among the penitents list by the Inquisition are 89 whose
ethnicity/occupation are given as trabalhador. They include Sudros, Bramenes,
Charados, Curumbims. Hope to put this data up soon so anyone interested can
access and use
Alan
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:02 PM sandra lobo <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily
coincide. I would say he could be a Brahmin but my advice is that you check
with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family
comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter.
My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people
with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a
specialist.
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37
Para: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores
Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent,
trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs in
certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s.
Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a
trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is
upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is
upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential
British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the
upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th
century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of
a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his
closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all
this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th
century Goan-Zanzibari society.)
Any input would be appreciated.
Warm wishes,
Selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo <[email protected]>
wrote:
Yes, you are right but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be
more used for white colour and business employees.
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De:[email protected] <[email protected]> em
nome de Susana Sardo <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 13:17
Para: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] trabalhadores
Hi Selma
They are essentially the same; it depends on the specific historical period you
are referring to. During a particular time frame, the term 'trabalhadores' was
commonly used. I believe this change occurred sometime in the 20th century,
possibly after the 1930sor 40’s when the word 'trabalhador' was replaced by
'empregados'. However, it would be beneficial to consult a contemporary history
specialist who could provide more accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador'
is used as a sociological category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with
the term 'funcionário’.
Best
susana
No dia 23/06/2023, às 13:09, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net
<[email protected]> escreveu:
Dear Pedro,
You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro which
appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when translated it
translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would be so many
journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing this up.
I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between
trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working class
employee and empregado a white collar office worker.
Take care,
selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 11:13:21 BST, PEDRO MASCARENHAS
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Selma
On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which means
«daily wage worker».
For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João
Rodrigues, daily wage worker).
There are people who mistake it for journalist.
Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que
significa «trabalhador pago ao dia».
Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro. Há pessoas que a
confundem com jornalistas.
Cumprimentos
Pedro Mascarenhas
'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> escreveu no
dia sexta, 23/06/2023 à(s) 08:47:
Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, that
would make sense.
Warm wishes,
Selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 08:43:04 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Selma
Trabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone, typically a
company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is commonly used in
Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation of the workers or
laborers within a factory, for instance.
Hope this helps
susana
No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu:
workers
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
<Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png>
<Outlook-bfshuoqr.png>
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 08:09
Para: Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Assunto: [GRN] trabalhadores
Dear all,
Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. While
proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I
interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send their
son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s.
many thanks,
selma
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/73690634.2214403.1687504175631%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB62944169CA4480125870C200A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/FB8FFEE7-BAB0-45A4-AE34-CFAA06EEEE4A%40ua.pt
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
Pedro Mascarenhas
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAKgQwHDkU8b6cjSaPVpAWU4WN6zfBYNsm4rcO%3DDAGZfeMqXjnw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/613138240.150608.1687522149873%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/4DB99FF8-D0C5-4CA6-BEC8-0CF3A43096F5%40ua.pt.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB629475A0E0B294384D587C93A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1133419008.2298936.1687527464905%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB6294B564D722E34AE3B98835A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAGbzhUAv%3DoaJHdTpOvWB%2BpZsL06_fMMb_GSAmO3D16%2B_PNEy9Q%40mail.gmail.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/651858283.2480647.1687578138773%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CY5PR11MB616467EA2B2B58AEBCE07687FF20A%40CY5PR11MB6164.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
[email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1444184800.2473342.1687581377570%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/IA1PR11MB6147AAD0329E4D4A71505B1CFF20A%40IA1PR11MB6147.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Goa-Research-Net" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web, visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1249076721.2621381.1687681131529%40mail.yahoo.com.
