Thanks, Fausto. Yes, perhaps it was an inaccuracy.
But that is not the family I was referring to. I have researched the Velsao
Souza family thoroughly and have got pretty much to the bottom of their social
and economic formation in the 19th century. I have even linked that family in a
way the family themselves don't know about. Incidentally, no Souza from Velsao
was consul general. It was a descendant of Felix Dias (also named Felix Dias)
who was Rosario's partner that became consul in Mombasa. (too long a story to
explain here).
take care,selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 22:18:02 BST, Jules Fausto Mendonca de Sa
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Selma,
I think I have an inkling as to the family you are alluding too who I believe
are a high class Chardo family and the descendants held very high positions
within the social strata in East Africa. They would interact with the Brahmin
families on a one to one basis. My maternal uncle for instance was the godson
of Rosario Sousa of Velsao who was the Portuguese Consul in East Africa around
the same time as my maternal grand Uncle who I believe held a similar position
in Mombasa
I do agree that sometimes baptism documents do not give an accurate account
and there are several instances of inaccuracies. When it comes to profession -
I have seen instances where the person is classified as a proprietario and in
another record as agricultor and in a third as jornaleiro. It also appears that
names were distorted. For instance Isabel could appear as Jebelina or Gebelina
or Elisabeth on various records.
Kind regards
Fausto
Sent from Outlook
From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Sent: 23 June 2023 15:47
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores True, a lot of
upper-caste who had fallen on hard times made their way to Africa but this is
an anomaly. Even if fallen on hard times, would they be documented as
'trabalhadores'? This opens up a can of worms but it falls outside the purview
of my research area (19th century migration to East Africa) that I can't
investigate it adequately, so I'll have to leave it at that.
Thank you, ladies.Selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 15:37:21 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you Sandra! I was preparing a message very similar to yours…. I fully
agree with you.I would say that Selma’s data are not contradictory and probably
correspond to many other similar situations of migration to Africa.
hugssusana
No dia 23/06/2023, às 15:32, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu:
Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily
coincide. I would say he could be a Brahmin but my advice is that you check
with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family
comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter.
My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people
with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a
specialist.
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
<Outlook-isna0ytf.png><Outlook-yrsz1iqg.png>
<Outlook-4quxjnpo.png>
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37
Para: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores Thank you so much Sandra and
Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, trabalhadores is stated in a 1869
baptism certificate and empregado occurs in certificates I've been looking up
starting from the 1920s.
Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a
trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is
upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is
upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential
British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the
upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th
century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of
a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his
closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all
this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th
century Goan-Zanzibari society.)
Any input would be appreciated.Warm wishes,Selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo <[email protected]>
wrote:
Yes, you are right but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be
more used for white colour and business employees.
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
<Outlook-1io2igkw.png><Outlook-zapy23lv.png>
<Outlook-nj1i5ipc.png>
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De: [email protected] <[email protected]> em
nome de Susana Sardo <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 13:17
Para: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] trabalhadores Hi SelmaThey are essentially the same; it
depends on the specific historical period you are referring to. During a
particular time frame, the term 'trabalhadores' was commonly used. I believe
this change occurred sometime in the 20th century, possibly after the 1930sor
40’s when the word 'trabalhador' was replaced by 'empregados'. However, it
would be beneficial to consult a contemporary history specialist who could
provide more accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador' is used as a
sociological category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with the term
'funcionário’.Bestsusana
No dia 23/06/2023, às 13:09, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net
<[email protected]> escreveu:
Dear Pedro,
You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro which
appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when translated it
translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would be so many
journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing this up.
I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between
trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working class
employee and empregado a white collar office worker.
Take care,selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 11:13:21 BST, PEDRO MASCARENHAS
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Selma
On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which means
«daily wage worker».
For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João
Rodrigues, daily wage worker).
There are people who mistake it for journalist.
Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que
significa «trabalhador pago ao dia».
Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro. Há pessoas que a
confundem com jornalistas.
Cumprimentos
Pedro Mascarenhas
'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> escreveu no
dia sexta, 23/06/2023 à(s) 08:47:
Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, that
would make sense.
Warm wishes,Selma
On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 08:43:04 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear SelmaTrabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone,
typically a company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is
commonly used in Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation
of the workers or laborers within a factory, for instance. Hope this helpssusana
No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu:
workers
Sandra Ataíde Lobo
<Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png>
<Outlook-bfshuoqr.png>
https://giepcip.wordpress.com/
tmn. ++351 930690459
De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 08:09
Para: Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Assunto: [GRN] trabalhadores Dear all,
Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. While
proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I
interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send their
son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s.
many thanks,selma
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