Hi Selma Just saw this If it is of any help, Among the penitents list by the Inquisition are 89 whose ethnicity/occupation are given as trabalhador. They include Sudros, Bramenes, Charados, Curumbims. Hope to put this data up soon so anyone interested can access and use Alan
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:02 PM sandra lobo <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily > coincide. I would say he could be a Brahmin but my advice is that you > check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his > family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on > the matter. My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by > upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was > costly. But I am not a specialist. > > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > ------------------------------ > *De:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 14:37 > *Para:* [email protected] < > [email protected]> > *Assunto:* Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores > > Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, > trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs > in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s. > > Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted > as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible > that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that > he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an > influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, > who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it > possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward > mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all > Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known > brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post > about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari > society.) > > Any input would be appreciated. > Warm wishes, > Selma > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Yes, you are right but I would say that in 19th century empregado would > be more used for white colour and business employees. > > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > ------------------------------ > *De:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > em nome de Susana Sardo <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 13:17 > *Para:* [email protected] < > [email protected]> > *Assunto:* Re: [GRN] trabalhadores > > Hi Selma > They are essentially the same; it depends on the specific historical > period you are referring to. During a particular time frame, the term > 'trabalhadores' was commonly used. I believe this change occurred sometime > in the 20th century, possibly after the 1930sor 40’s when the word > 'trabalhador' was replaced by 'empregados'. However, it would be beneficial > to consult a contemporary history specialist who could provide more > accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador' is used as a sociological > category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with the term 'funcionário’. > Best > susana > > > No dia 23/06/2023, às 13:09, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net < > [email protected]> escreveu: > > Dear Pedro, > > You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro > which appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when > translated it translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would > be so many journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing > this up. > > I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between > trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working > class employee and empregado a white collar office worker. > > Take care, > selma > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 11:13:21 BST, PEDRO MASCARENHAS < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Selma > > On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which > means «daily wage worker». > > For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João > Rodrigues, daily wage worker). > > There are people who mistake it for journalist. > > > > Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que > significa «trabalhador pago ao dia». > > Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro. Há pessoas > que a confundem com jornalistas. > > Cumprimentos > > Pedro Mascarenhas > > 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > escreveu no dia sexta, 23/06/2023 à(s) 08:47: > > Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, > that would make sense. > > Warm wishes, > Selma > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 08:43:04 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Dear Selma > Trabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone, typically > a company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is commonly > used in Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation of the > workers or laborers within a factory, for instance. > Hope this helps > susana > > No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu: > > workers > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > <Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png> > > <Outlook-bfshuoqr.png> > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > ------------------------------ > *De:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 08:09 > *Para:* Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Assunto:* [GRN] trabalhadores > > Dear all, > > Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. > While > proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I > interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send > their son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s. > > *many thanks,* > *selma* > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/73690634.2214403.1687504175631%40mail.yahoo.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/73690634.2214403.1687504175631%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB62944169CA4480125870C200A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB62944169CA4480125870C200A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/FB8FFEE7-BAB0-45A4-AE34-CFAA06EEEE4A%40ua.pt > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/FB8FFEE7-BAB0-45A4-AE34-CFAA06EEEE4A%40ua.pt?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > > -- > Pedro Mascarenhas > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAKgQwHDkU8b6cjSaPVpAWU4WN6zfBYNsm4rcO%3DDAGZfeMqXjnw%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAKgQwHDkU8b6cjSaPVpAWU4WN6zfBYNsm4rcO%3DDAGZfeMqXjnw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/613138240.150608.1687522149873%40mail.yahoo.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/613138240.150608.1687522149873%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/4DB99FF8-D0C5-4CA6-BEC8-0CF3A43096F5%40ua.pt > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/4DB99FF8-D0C5-4CA6-BEC8-0CF3A43096F5%40ua.pt?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB629475A0E0B294384D587C93A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB629475A0E0B294384D587C93A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1133419008.2298936.1687527464905%40mail.yahoo.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1133419008.2298936.1687527464905%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB6294B564D722E34AE3B98835A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/AS8PR10MB6294B564D722E34AE3B98835A523A%40AS8PR10MB6294.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAGbzhUAv%3DoaJHdTpOvWB%2BpZsL06_fMMb_GSAmO3D16%2B_PNEy9Q%40mail.gmail.com.
