hello John jornaleiro was a term used for daily labourer. suppose something like lavrador (agriculural labourer),
Alan On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:48 PM 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net < [email protected]> wrote: > Thank you, John. I only needed a few records investigated of Goans who had > travelled to Zanzibar in the 1800s and then out of curiosity I started to > randomly look at records which are online. There is an absolute feast of > information in these records one can draw on, such as was the child > baptised at home or at the parish, on one record, the child was so much in > danger, the mid-wife baptised him. Then there are occupations, godparents, > parentage. The detail is not consistent throughout Goa. Later records, that > is mid-19th century onwards have more detail than prior. > > Unfortunately, some enquiries from me to my researcher came back as book > too degraded or book under reconstruction or book missing. I don't want to > restart this conversation but we Goans must do something to preserve those > records, I just don't know what. > > Take care, > Selma > > On Sunday, 25 June 2023 at 00:12:28 BST, John Nazareth < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Selma > > > > When I first went through these records I was concentrating on specific > areas to be able to trace my family tree. > > I had limited time in the Panjim Archives and did not concentrate on the > professions of the people as given. > > And I was learning Portuguese (the critical words) on the fly. > > Many of them were not at all specific – it was as if they were going > through the motions and were giving very general professions such as > “employees”. For women, they would say “domestics” or “landowners”. I did > notice that a lot of people from Sao Matias (AKA Malar) of Divar has > “musician” as a profession. > > > > I am amazed at how much can be done with these records. One friend wanted > to do some life expectancy studies. > > > > It looks like one has to go back over old records a number of times to get > more info. > > > > I first started learning Portuguese to look over records in the Panjim > Archives in 2007. > > When I came back to Toronto I wrote up some notes, critical words to guide > me. > > So when I went back over the same books in 2016 I found 3 times more > records of interest just to trace my family tree. > > Now I see that we could go back to look at other elements of interest. > > That is why it is so important to have these records digitized. > > > > John > > > > *From:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > > *Sent:* Saturday, June 24, 2023 12:36 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores > > > > Dear John, > > > > Since you've been through 100s of these certificates, perhaps you care to > hazard a guess as to how these terms were used in 19th century Goa and if > at all they corresponded to caste. The other genealogist I work with and > our common friend says they are difficult to put into context or draw some > sort of coherent conclusion. Certainly, a job for the academics. > > > > Take care, > > Selma > > > > On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 05:11:36 BST, John Nazareth < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > For what it’s worth, here is a translation of terms from Google Translate > that gives us a hint of how the terms might be used (as there is overlap) > > > > employee > > empregado, funcionário > ------------------------------ > > servant > > servo, criado, servidor, empregado, funcionário, criada > ------------------------------ > > clerk > > funcionário, balconista, escriturário, empregado, empregado de escritório, > sacristão > ------------------------------ > > porter > > porteiro, carregador, bagageiro, empregado, cabineiro, cerveja preta tipo > porter > ------------------------------ > > menial > > criado, capacho, servo, lacaio, empregado, pessoa servil > ------------------------------ > > shop assistant > > caixeiro, empregado, empregada > ------------------------------ > > perquisite > > gratificação, privilégio, emolumentos, empregado > ------------------------------ > > door's-man > > porteiro, carregador, empregado > > adjective > ------------------------------ > > servant > > empregado > ------------------------------ > > appointed > > empregado > > > > journalist > > jornalista > > > > newsboy > > jornaleiro > > > > > > Regards > > > > John > > > > *From:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > > *Sent:* Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores > > > > Thanks much, Alan. > > Take care, > > Selma > > > > On Saturday, 24 June 2023 at 02:09:26 BST, alan machado < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Selma > > Just saw this > > If it is of any help, Among the penitents list by the Inquisition are 89 > whose ethnicity/occupation are given as trabalhador. They include Sudros, > Bramenes, Charados, Curumbims. Hope to put this data up soon so anyone > interested can access and use > > Alan > > > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:02 PM sandra lobo <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily > coincide. I would say he could be a Brahmin but my advice is that you > check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his > family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on > the matter. My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by > upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was > costly. But I am not a specialist. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > > ------------------------------ > > *De:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 14:37 > *Para:* [email protected] < > [email protected]> > *Assunto:* Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores > > > > Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, > trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs > in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s. > > > > Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted > as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible > that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that > he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an > influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, > who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it > possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward > mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all > Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known > brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post > about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari > society.) > > > > Any input would be appreciated. > > Warm wishes, > > Selma > > > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, you are right but I would say that in 19th century empregado would > be more used for white colour and business employees. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > > ------------------------------ > > *De:* [email protected] <[email protected]> > em nome de Susana Sardo <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 13:17 > *Para:* [email protected] < > [email protected]> > *Assunto:* Re: [GRN] trabalhadores > > > > Hi Selma > > They are essentially the same; it depends on the specific historical > period you are referring to. During a particular time frame, the term > 'trabalhadores' was commonly used. I believe this change occurred sometime > in the 20th century, possibly after the 1930sor 40’s when the word > 'trabalhador' was replaced by 'empregados'. However, it would be beneficial > to consult a contemporary history specialist who could provide more > accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador' is used as a sociological > category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with the term 'funcionário’. > > Best > > susana > > > > > > No dia 23/06/2023, às 13:09, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net < > [email protected]> escreveu: > > > > Dear Pedro, > > > > You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro > which appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when > translated it translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would > be so many journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing > this up. > > > > I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between > trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working > class employee and empregado a white collar office worker. > > > > Take care, > > selma > > > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 11:13:21 BST, PEDRO MASCARENHAS < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Selma > > On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which > means «daily wage worker». > > For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João > Rodrigues, daily wage worker). > > There are people who mistake it for journalist. > > > > > > Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que > significa «trabalhador pago ao dia». > > Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro. Há pessoas > que a confundem com jornalistas. > > Cumprimentos > > Pedro Mascarenhas > > > > 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > escreveu no dia sexta, 23/06/2023 à(s) 08:47: > > Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, > that would make sense. > > > > Warm wishes, > > Selma > > > > On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 08:43:04 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Selma > > Trabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone, typically > a company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is commonly > used in Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation of the > workers or laborers within a factory, for instance. > > Hope this helps > > susana > > > > No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu: > > > > workers > > > > > > > > > > Sandra Ataíde Lobo > > <Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png> > > <Outlook-bfshuoqr.png> > > > > https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ > > tmn. ++351 930690459 > > > ------------------------------ > > *De:* 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Enviado:* 23 de junho de 2023 08:09 > *Para:* Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> > *Assunto:* [GRN] trabalhadores > > > > Dear all, > > > > Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. > While > > proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I > interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send > their son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s. > > > 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