Hi Selma, I think I have an inkling as to the family you are alluding too who I believe are a high class Chardo family and the descendants held very high positions within the social strata in East Africa. They would interact with the Brahmin families on a one to one basis. My maternal uncle for instance was the godson of Rosario Sousa of Velsao who was the Portuguese Consul in East Africa around the same time as my maternal grand Uncle who I believe held a similar position in Mombasa
I do agree that sometimes baptism documents do not give an accurate account and there are several instances of inaccuracies. When it comes to profession - I have seen instances where the person is classified as a proprietario and in another record as agricultor and in a third as jornaleiro. It also appears that names were distorted. For instance Isabel could appear as Jebelina or Gebelina or Elisabeth on various records. Kind regards Fausto Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook> ________________________________ From: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> Sent: 23 June 2023 15:47 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Responder: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores True, a lot of upper-caste who had fallen on hard times made their way to Africa but this is an anomaly. Even if fallen on hard times, would they be documented as 'trabalhadores'? This opens up a can of worms but it falls outside the purview of my research area (19th century migration to East Africa) that I can't investigate it adequately, so I'll have to leave it at that. Thank you, ladies. Selma On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 15:37:21 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you Sandra! I was preparing a message very similar to yours…. I fully agree with you. I would say that Selma’s data are not contradictory and probably correspond to many other similar situations of migration to Africa. hugs susana No dia 23/06/2023, às 15:32, sandra lobo <[email protected]> escreveu: Dear Selma. As you know caste and economic conditions do not necessarily coincide. I would say he could be a Brahmin but my advice is that you check with a genealogist like Valmiki at this forum. Dependent of where his family comes from there may be the possibility of throwing some light on the matter. My perception is that migration to Africa was dominated by upper caste/people with minimum financial conditions. Moving so far was costly. But I am not a specialist. Sandra Ataíde Lobo <Outlook-isna0ytf.png><Outlook-yrsz1iqg.png> <Outlook-4quxjnpo.png> https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ tmn. ++351 930690459 ________________________________ De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 14:37 Para: [email protected] <[email protected]> Assunto: Re: Responder: [GRN] trabalhadores Thank you so much Sandra and Susana. Yes, that would be consistent, trabalhadores is stated in a 1869 baptism certificate and empregado occurs in certificates I've been looking up starting from the 1920s. Now, there is one more conundrum to resolve. Let us assume Mr X, is noted as a trabalhadores in his son's baptism certificate. Is it also possible that X is upper-caste? Because every other signifier for this man is that he is upper-caste. He goes to Zanzibar, holds an job there with an influential British mercantile firm, he educates his son to be a doctor, who rises to the upper-echelons of Portuguese consular positions. Is it possible for 19th century Goa /Zanzibar to have provided such upward mobility? Also he is part of a group of Goans in Zanzibar who are all Portuguese speaking Goans, and his closest friends there are known brahmins. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. (This is not a post about caste, but the machinations of caste in 19th century Goan-Zanzibari society.) Any input would be appreciated. Warm wishes, Selma On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 14:22:09 BST, sandra lobo <[email protected]> wrote: Yes, you are right but I would say that in 19th century empregado would be more used for white colour and business employees. Sandra Ataíde Lobo <Outlook-1io2igkw.png><Outlook-zapy23lv.png> <Outlook-nj1i5ipc.png> https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ tmn. ++351 930690459 ________________________________ De: [email protected] <[email protected]> em nome de Susana Sardo <[email protected]> Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 13:17 Para: [email protected] <[email protected]> Assunto: Re: [GRN] trabalhadores Hi Selma They are essentially the same; it depends on the specific historical period you are referring to. During a particular time frame, the term 'trabalhadores' was commonly used. I believe this change occurred sometime in the 20th century, possibly after the 1930sor 40’s when the word 'trabalhador' was replaced by 'empregados'. However, it would be beneficial to consult a contemporary history specialist who could provide more accurate information. Nowadays, 'trabalhador' is used as a sociological category, and 'empregado' has been substituted with the term 'funcionário’. Best susana No dia 23/06/2023, às 13:09, 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> escreveu: Dear Pedro, You are absolutely right. Indeed, there is this occupation jornaleiro which appears particularly for women and it seemed odd because when translated it translates to journalist, and it seemed odd that there would be so many journalists in remote villages in Goa :-) Thank you for clearing this up. I wonder if anyone would care to elaborate the exact difference between trabalhadores and empregado. I'm assuming trabalhadores would be working class employee and empregado a white collar office worker. Take care, selma On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 11:13:21 BST, PEDRO MASCARENHAS <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Selma On some baptism certificates you will find the word «jornaleiro» which means «daily wage worker». For example,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro (son of João Rodrigues, daily wage worker). There are people who mistake it for journalist. Em alguns certificados de batismo encontrará a palavra «jornaleiro» que significa «trabalhador pago ao dia». Por exemplo,… filho de João Rodrigues, profissão jornaleiro. Há pessoas que a confundem com jornalistas. Cumprimentos Pedro Mascarenhas 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> escreveu no dia sexta, 23/06/2023 à(s) 08:47: Aaaah, yes, thank you very much Susana. Yes, in this context definitely, that would make sense. Warm wishes, Selma On Friday, 23 June 2023 at 08:43:04 BST, Susana Sardo <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Dear Selma Trabalhadores refers to individuals who are employed by someone, typically a company, and receive compensation for their work. This term is commonly used in Portuguese baptismal certificates to indicate the occupation of the workers or laborers within a factory, for instance. Hope this helps susana No dia 23/06/2023, às 08:26, sandra lobo <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> escreveu: workers Sandra Ataíde Lobo <Outlook-45asdd4h.png><Outlook-5gzm3hbz.png> <Outlook-bfshuoqr.png> https://giepcip.wordpress.com/ tmn. ++351 930690459 ________________________________ De: 'Carvalho' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Enviado: 23 de junho de 2023 08:09 Para: Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Assunto: [GRN] trabalhadores Dear all, Need some help in interpreting 'trabalhadores' on baptism certificates. While proprietários and lavrador de palmeiras is easy to interpret, how may I interpret trabalhadores, especially if they were well off enough to send their son to Edinburgh for higher education in the 1800s. many thanks, selma -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. 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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1553411704.2143252.1687506454226%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- Pedro Mascarenhas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. 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