Dear JPC, Why do you want to shatter dreams? Ever since the Indian forces marched into Goa, Catholic Goans have been dreaming of a ‘what if’ (Goa was an independent country). You are now telling us that lacking the discovery of an offshore oil shelf or a gigantic solar system generating energy to neighbouring India, we would have been relegated to an economy of Papua New Guinea less their Australian sponsorship?
Roland, Toronto. > On Jan 9, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Prof Gomes, > As somebody who has lived in various places/countries in four continents - > including Goa - I can assure you I know what I am talking about. > Goa was left abandoned by the Portuguese, with minimal infrastructure that > appeased the authorities and the public then, and only prospered today due to > India's central government money. > However, there is a big price to pay for this modernisation - high > corruption, political blackmail and other illnesses inherited from the > mainland. > Lack of Freedom of speech being one which hardly anybody speaks about, > besides a censored and controlled media. > About your points of argument, please note: > Goa's tiny size and location does warrant the need a godfather nation to > protect it, like Singapore and Israel has the USA who will walk the talk if > they are attacked. Possibly because the Jews control Uncle Sam and also the > US knows it would crumble with the loss of control of Singapore's microchip > industry, if it ever falls on Chinese hands. Whom does Goa have as great > godfather nation for protection? Tiny and bankrupt Portugal? Corrupt and > greedy India waiting to invade 24/7 if Goa was independent? Corrupt and > bankrupt Russia? Nobody. One need a rock solid alliance with a super power to > survive in this day and age, else the Somali pirates could easily land on > Goan beaches and just take over the place. The Goan mineral types are not the > big revenue earners that can bankroll a country, they are useful for > industries that may create demand in the future. Precious metals and rare > earths are what is on demand today. The price of iron ore is lower than 10 > years ago. In this day an age with a changing tech scenario, the goalposts > keep changing in terms of global demand. Lithium is the new gold, till new > battery tech will dictate what the next top metal is going to be. The book > 'Goa e as Praças do Norte' has some amazing geological and other maps that > documents Goa as a tiny state that has very limited resources. > Fishing is not sustainable at all in Goa, because fisherfolk use now tiny > nets that catch the smallest of young fish, so in a few years' time, it will > be a very serious problem in waiting. Independence in developing nations > means people taking short cuts with almost zero impunity, leave alone lack of > training programmes for these people. The size of the catch at fish markets > all over Goa can confirm this, totally unacceptable. I had seen it with my > own eyes, when asked, the fisherfolk said they had to survive! Please look at > almost any African nation and name one single one that is flourishing, its > people are happy and have high per capita or HHDI index, when most of them > have unique mineral resources that can bankroll huge economies. Tourism is > hardly reliable these days with the destruction of Goan beaches and building > of concrete jungles and massive domestic tourism that makes Goa one of the > filthiest places on earth, at least on the beaches and everywhere they walk > on. Building a second international airport is not a measure of prosperity, > one needs more than that to sustain this weak industry prone to recession and > other never thought factors like Covid. I have got quite bad feedback from > tourists who had been there, not from doctored, manicured Tripadvisor > feedback. Goa is unfortunately not as beautiful, clean and unspoilt as it has > been decades ago. > This high per capita figure is due to India pumping big money into Goa, with > lots of it dirty money. Goa is hardly producing anything on its own, what > does Goa actually produce to justify this high figure? It is also due to > foreign money being sent to Goa by expats which is then used to support the > local economy. Somebody from Europe or Middle East sending money back home, > constructing a palatial house (thereby employing local workers, etc). It is > just statistics, relying on foreign money remittances it is hardly ever a > reliable economy backbone of an independent state. Countries like the > Philippines can collapse if all workers are sent back home someday, something > that can happen if China has its way with its imperialist ambitions disguised > as Belt and Road initiative. > The HHDI rating is high due to the above reasons, if Goa was alone since 1961 > and left on its own, we would be at the bottom of the table, as what it would > had produced would had not generated the high figures needed to prop up the > economy. > As I had said earlier, Goa dos not have what it takes to be a nation, in > terms of resources, geographical location, political integrity and size. > Goa is struggling to pay the civil service. Imagine now if you had an army, > airforce and navy to its salary bill... leave alone machinery. > Sadly, it never had a realistic chance. > We can argue and counter argue on this, but in true honesty, one must be > realistic in making a case for independence. It is not just about a new flag > and a new national anthem. > It is more complex that both you and me can ever fathom. > Kind regards, > Joao Paulo Cota > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> > on behalf of Tony Gomes <[email protected]> > Sent: 03 January 2024 18:01 > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets > > Dear Mr. Cota, > > I take serious issue with your comment that “Goa would have fallen on the > struggling group if it were to go solo after 1961, it does not have what it > takes to be an independent nation.” > > > Under Portuguese colonialism, it can be said that on the whole, barring some > developments in the post-1950 era, such as the granting of mining leases to a > few Goan families, Goa, together with other Portuguese colonies remained, at > what Edward W. Saïd has referred to as a paradigmatic fossilized provinces > with very little if any commercial development. This is not surprising since > the whole Iberian Peninsula: Portugal under Salazar, and Spain under Franco > remained fossilized in contrast to most other European States under > democratic governments. > > > Your assertion is a rather arbitrary viewpoint in my view. To put it bluntly: > It is possible, what you conclude, but we don’t know the answer. > > Prior to 1961, an alternate view led by the Goan lawyer Antonio A. Bruto da > Costa had rejected both Portuguese colonialism and Indian nationalism > advocating autonomy and possibly independence. (see From Post-Colonial to > Neo-Colonial: Perils and Prospects Facing Goan Culture Today, By Anthony > Gomes in Goa: A Post-Colonial Society Between Cultures.) One can readily > hypothesize that had Salazar given Goa independence, India under Nehru would > not have invaded Goa. Or better still if Salazar had to opt for a Plebiscite > (similar to East Timor), it is likely that majority of the Goan population of > then might have voted for an independent Goa. (similar to the Opinion Poll > that rejected integration of Goa into the neighboring state of Maharashtra. > Incidentally, I was a medical student then in Goa and campaigned on behalf of > United Goans Party against Goa’s integration into Maharashtra.) > > The current statistics and information point to the contrary to your > statement. > > 1: Although Goa is a small enclave encompassing an area of 3,702 km2 (1,429 > sq miles), it > > is rich in mineral resources. Major minerals include iron ore, manganese, > ferro-manganese, bauxite and silica sand. Iron and manganese mining were the > backbone of Goa’s economy. > > 2: Fishing, iron exports, industry, and tourism has contributed to the > state’s economic well-being. > > 3: Currently, Goa has the highest per capita income in the whole of India. > > 4: It has a High Human Development Index, which measures indicators such as > health, education, and standard of living. > > Off course one could attribute the rapid almost “mindboggling” commercial > development in Goa to the central government in India, which took advantage > of Goa’s western heritage and made it into a hotbed of tourism. However, if > left to itself, the development might have been more tempered with better > city planning etc. all to the benefit of Goa’s ecology and wellbeing. > > > > Anthony Gomes, > > Professor of Medicine, > > The Mount Sinai Medical Center, NY. > > Author of The Sting of Peppercorns > > > >> On Dec 16, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Needless to say that Nauru has one of the highest obesity rates in the >> world. Precisely due to the fact that inhabitants do not have to... work. >> Most small countries that had their independence recently last century are >> all struggling economically - Africa, Central America, Pacific Ocean, Asia, >> etc (possibly with the exceptioin of Macau and HK). Only a few of these >> nations have some decent industries and good sources of income - like Macau >> has its casinos and HK its historical trade connections. >> Goa would had fallen on the struggling group if it were to go solo after >> 1961, it does not have what it takes to be an independent nation. >> So, my point on independence is that, one has to go beyond the emotional >> barrier to actually get real and be able to forecast what is in store for >> the future as an independent, sovereign nation. Working with real figures... >> and not with just a flag and a national anthem. >> JP >> >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> on behalf of PEDRO MASCARENHAS <[email protected]> >> Sent: 15 December 2023 14:30 >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets >> >> Nauru rich? With income from phosphate mining and a population of 4,000 >> people, Nauru is the richest island in the world per capita. Most Nauruans >> don't work and can enjoy the comforts of modern society. There has also been >> a documented loss of Nauruan traditions like subsistence farming as well as >> the violations of their rights to their own land and the continued human >> rights violations that continue at the Nauru detention center.[ >> >> Tuvalu problems : Is Tuvalu a rich or poor country? In addition to >> traditional agriculture and fishing, Tuvalu also relies heavily on >> international aid. The country is one of the smallest and poorest nations in >> the world, with limited natural resources and infrastructure. >> >> Marshall Islands need assistance: United States government assistance is >> the mainstay of the economy. Under terms of the Amended Compact of Free >> Association, the U.S. is committed to providing US$57.7 million per year in >> assistance to the Marshall Islands (RMI) through 2013 and then US$62.7 >> million through 2023, at which time a trust fund, made up of U.S. and RMI >> contributions, will begin perpetual annual payouts.The United States Army >> maintains the Ronald Reagan Ballistic Missile Defense Test Site on Kwajalein >> Atoll. Marshallese landowners receive rent for the base. >> >> 'Bernardo de Sousa' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]> >> escreveu no dia sexta, 15/12/2023 à(s) 10:45: >> Here is a list of the 10 smallest countries without any iron ore or big >> industries that are all independent countries, rich and thriving. Your >> argument falls completely flat: >> >> • Vatican City (0.19 square miles) >> • Monaco (0.78 square miles) >> • Nauru (8.1 square miles) >> • Tuvalu (10 square miles) >> • San Marino (24 square miles) >> • Liechtenstein (62 square miles) >> • Marshall Islands (70 square miles) >> • Saint Kitts and Nevis (101 square miles) >> • Maldives (120 square miles) >> • Malta (122 square miles) >> >> > On 13 Dec 2023, at 11:03, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > The economic blockade was designed to disrupt the imports from overseas >> > and from inland India. >> > Agree that Goa produced manpower for the three military branches, but >> > having its own military bases, airports and naval quarters alongwith >> > tanks, fighter jets, warships of all classes, are a total different >> > ballgame. >> > Goa's iron ore and other small industries would not generate enough GDP to >> > fund all that plus run the state. >> > It could never be an independent country. Just too small in size... >> > although there were valid calls for this due to the unique Goan identity. >> > Regards, >> > Joao PauloFrom: [email protected] >> > <[email protected]> on behalf of John de Figueiredo >> > <[email protected]> >> > Sent: 13 December 2023 01:03 >> > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets >> > Valmiki Faleiro stated that the economic blockade placed by the >> > Government of India proved Goa to be perfectly capable of being >> > self-sufficient and he demonstrated that Goa produced distinguished >> > officers in the army, Air Force, and navy. So that argument does not seem >> > to be supported by data. All the pieces of the puzzle were in place but >> > the puzzle was never solved. >> > John >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Dec 12, 2023, at 7:18 PM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Worth pointing out that Monaco does not have any army, air force or navy. >> >> Its defence needs are being provided by France. >> >> Hence the same analogy would mean, India would need to provide that to >> >> Goa, being its immediate neighbour... realistically, I can't see that >> >> happening. >> >> JP >> >> >> >> From: [email protected] >> >> <[email protected]> on behalf of John de Figueiredo >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> Sent: 12 December 2023 23:09 >> >> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets >> >> Good points, Frederick. >> >> The geographical argument does not count either. >> >> Monaco is of the size of 314 acres, with a population a little over >> >> 36,000, speaking French, and surrounded all 3 sides by France. The third >> >> side is along the sea just as Goa. But Monaco is an independent nation. >> >> Bruto da Costa wanted a plebiscite for the Goans to decide on the future >> >> of Goa. This plebiscite never took place. >> >> At any rate, if flowers became concrete, this conversation is irrelevant >> >> because the Goa we are discussing is no more. >> >> John >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Dec 12, 2023, at 4:02 PM, fredericknoronha >> >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Something makes me want to disagree with quite a few of the comments >> >>> made, and conclusions drawn, below: >> >>> >> >>> (1) My reading is that Portugal dealt with East Timor in the way it did >> >>> more due to the turmoil at that time in Portugal itself, the Carnation >> >>> Revolution, abrupt change in political direction, etc. Open to >> >>> correction here. >> >>> >> >>> (2) About Goa being a "rich basket", economic studies and other accepted >> >>> analyses suggest otherwise. Salazar could have (rightly) seen a "domino >> >>> effect" starting in Goa. Something that undercut the plank on which his >> >>> ideology was based. Plus, in the Portuguese imagination over centuries, >> >>> Goa meant something rather different. Call this emotional reasons, or >> >>> whatever you wish. >> >>> >> >>> (3) "Indian patience ran out" is a shorthand argument which has, >> >>> unfortunately, been widely accepted in our perspective on the issue. If >> >>> you read the trajectory of events as outlined in Valmiki Faleiro's >> >>> recent book, you might conclude otherwise. >> >>> >> >>> (4) 1961 in Goa has to be also viewed in the context of the Cold War. >> >>> Some studies here have begun looking in that direction. This issue is >> >>> not only about India and Portugal, let alone Goa. >> >>> >> >>> (5) This "France was wise" or "Portugal could have followed France" >> >>> logic has been put forth repeatedly, and seldom challenged. It is based >> >>> on an acute misunderstanding of what happened in Pondicherry. For >> >>> instance, a perusal of the recently-published The Portuguese Presence in >> >>> India (Notion Press, 2020) by João A de Menezes, p.198-212, could >> >>> easily make one rethink this argument. This argument has come up a few >> >>> times in this forum too, and then we end up taking it as accurate. >> >>> >> >>> FN >> >>> >> >>> On Wednesday 13 December 2023 at 01:58:43 UTC+5:30 eugene.correia wrote: >> >>> Well, Portugal withdrew from East Timor, as the independence movement >> >>> was fierce. I don't think Portugal keeping East Timor as one of its >> >>> colonies would be a financial benefit. Seemingly, East Timor was a >> >>> "basket case' for Portugal while Goa was a "rich basket". Colonial >> >>> politics in those times rested on "gains and loses" and Portugal let go >> >>> off of East Timor but reluctantly held on to Goa. >> >>> As events proved later on, Indian patience ran out. Knowing well that >> >>> Salszar would find it difficult to keep Goa in its embrace by engaging >> >>> India in a war, it was a walk-over as we know it. Goa's freedom did ring >> >>> a bell in African countries and the Non-Alignment Movement gained >> >>> momentum and slowly but surely the continent of Africa was free of >> >>> colonial rule. No self-respecting people like subjugation by a foreign >> >>> power when the people's consciousness and national pride comes to the >> >>> fore. >> >>> What would happen to Goa if it continued to be under Portuguese rule is >> >>> nobody's guess. France was wise, as it earned respect. Portugal was >> >>> humbled and disgraced. History is dotted with such examples. >> >>> >> >>> Eugene Correia >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >>> an email to [email protected]. >> >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/ae318b18-d024-4e3a-b903-fc3924830319n%40googlegroups.com. >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/A3D036AD-7F50-4D20-9DDA-33D3A37D5228%40sbcglobal.net. >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161243327818C46710292C1828EA%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> > "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> > email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web, visit >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/FBF8CF0C-708D-4396-B852-74595016F71E%40sbcglobal.net. >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> > "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> > email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion on the web, visit >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161E084AB9E122A0D53F92E828DA%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/8C36C549-51F9-4688-B9E8-3345001191A5%40gmx.ch. >> >> >> -- >> Pedro Mascarenhas >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAKgQwHA2vWZpe7BrBOp8AFKcBxvO3TL33eBWGt%2BcWtMue1ov_A%40mail.gmail.com. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161ED0723436CF6C33A6D908292A%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/B0746F91-A0D6-48C7-B2F3-3DBF408FB2D6%40gmail.com. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB216112904D21D8EC9195B717826A2%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/0DDC1611-673D-487F-B366-99F9B5159B37%40gmail.com.
