Dear Roland, Sadly, yes, Goa would need a big golden egg on its basket - like Singapore have their microchips industry, Israel have their advanced tech, the Swiss have their watches/swiss army knives/banking... even Papua New Guinea have huge mineral, oil and gas reserves, making it the 7th growing economy in the world. But poor... due to leadership incompetence. These Goan dreams are still dreams, impossible to destroy them. But they will always stay as dreams... the time to talk was 1961, too late to cry over spilt milk now. I am a trained engineer, I work with data and facts. Goa's economical data in 1961 was never going to add up to make a strong case for independence. It would never work. India would had been the saviour and swallow it in eventually. Being of Goan origin, I would prefer Goa to be independent due to its unique identity and culture, but... the sad truth is that it does not have what it takes to be an independent nation. Regards, Joao Paulo
________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Roland Francis <[email protected]> Sent: 09 January 2024 16:01 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets Dear JPC, Why do you want to shatter dreams? Ever since the Indian forces marched into Goa, Catholic Goans have been dreaming of a ‘what if’ (Goa was an independent country). You are now telling us that lacking the discovery of an offshore oil shelf or a gigantic solar system generating energy to neighbouring India, we would have been relegated to an economy of Papua New Guinea less their Australian sponsorship? Roland, Toronto. On Jan 9, 2024, at 8:44 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Prof Gomes, As somebody who has lived in various places/countries in four continents - including Goa - I can assure you I know what I am talking about. Goa was left abandoned by the Portuguese, with minimal infrastructure that appeased the authorities and the public then, and only prospered today due to India's central government money. However, there is a big price to pay for this modernisation - high corruption, political blackmail and other illnesses inherited from the mainland. Lack of Freedom of speech being one which hardly anybody speaks about, besides a censored and controlled media. About your points of argument, please note: 1. Goa's tiny size and location does warrant the need a godfather nation to protect it, like Singapore and Israel has the USA who will walk the talk if they are attacked. Possibly because the Jews control Uncle Sam and also the US knows it would crumble with the loss of control of Singapore's microchip industry, if it ever falls on Chinese hands. Whom does Goa have as great godfather nation for protection? Tiny and bankrupt Portugal? Corrupt and greedy India waiting to invade 24/7 if Goa was independent? Corrupt and bankrupt Russia? Nobody. One need a rock solid alliance with a super power to survive in this day and age, else the Somali pirates could easily land on Goan beaches and just take over the place. The Goan mineral types are not the big revenue earners that can bankroll a country, they are useful for industries that may create demand in the future. Precious metals and rare earths are what is on demand today. The price of iron ore is lower than 10 years ago. In this day an age with a changing tech scenario, the goalposts keep changing in terms of global demand. Lithium is the new gold, till new battery tech will dictate what the next top metal is going to be. The book 'Goa e as Praças do Norte' has some amazing geological and other maps that documents Goa as a tiny state that has very limited resources. 2. Fishing is not sustainable at all in Goa, because fisherfolk use now tiny nets that catch the smallest of young fish, so in a few years' time, it will be a very serious problem in waiting. Independence in developing nations means people taking short cuts with almost zero impunity, leave alone lack of training programmes for these people. The size of the catch at fish markets all over Goa can confirm this, totally unacceptable. I had seen it with my own eyes, when asked, the fisherfolk said they had to survive! Please look at almost any African nation and name one single one that is flourishing, its people are happy and have high per capita or HHDI index, when most of them have unique mineral resources that can bankroll huge economies. Tourism is hardly reliable these days with the destruction of Goan beaches and building of concrete jungles and massive domestic tourism that makes Goa one of the filthiest places on earth, at least on the beaches and everywhere they walk on. Building a second international airport is not a measure of prosperity, one needs more than that to sustain this weak industry prone to recession and other never thought factors like Covid. I have got quite bad feedback from tourists who had been there, not from doctored, manicured Tripadvisor feedback. Goa is unfortunately not as beautiful, clean and unspoilt as it has been decades ago. 3. This high per capita figure is due to India pumping big money into Goa, with lots of it dirty money. Goa is hardly producing anything on its own, what does Goa actually produce to justify this high figure? It is also due to foreign money being sent to Goa by expats which is then used to support the local economy. Somebody from Europe or Middle East sending money back home, constructing a palatial house (thereby employing local workers, etc). It is just statistics, relying on foreign money remittances it is hardly ever a reliable economy backbone of an independent state. Countries like the Philippines can collapse if all workers are sent back home someday, something that can happen if China has its way with its imperialist ambitions disguised as Belt and Road initiative. 4. The HHDI rating is high due to the above reasons, if Goa was alone since 1961 and left on its own, we would be at the bottom of the table, as what it would had produced would had not generated the high figures needed to prop up the economy. As I had said earlier, Goa dos not have what it takes to be a nation, in terms of resources, geographical location, political integrity and size. Goa is struggling to pay the civil service. Imagine now if you had an army, airforce and navy to its salary bill... leave alone machinery. Sadly, it never had a realistic chance. We can argue and counter argue on this, but in true honesty, one must be realistic in making a case for independence. It is not just about a new flag and a new national anthem. It is more complex that both you and me can ever fathom. Kind regards, Joao Paulo Cota ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Tony Gomes <[email protected]> Sent: 03 January 2024 18:01 To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets Dear Mr. Cota, I take serious issue with your comment that “Goa would have fallen on the struggling group if it were to go solo after 1961, it does not have what it takes to be an independent nation.” Under Portuguese colonialism, it can be said that on the whole, barring some developments in the post-1950 era, such as the granting of mining leases to a few Goan families, Goa, together with other Portuguese colonies remained, at what Edward W. Saïd has referred to as a paradigmatic fossilized provinces with very little if any commercial development. This is not surprising since the whole Iberian Peninsula: Portugal under Salazar, and Spain under Franco remained fossilized in contrast to most other European States under democratic governments. Your assertion is a rather arbitrary viewpoint in my view. To put it bluntly: It is possible, what you conclude, but we don’t know the answer. Prior to 1961, an alternate view led by the Goan lawyer Antonio A. Bruto da Costa had rejected both Portuguese colonialism and Indian nationalism advocating autonomy and possibly independence. (see From Post-Colonial to Neo-Colonial: Perils and Prospects Facing Goan Culture Today, By Anthony Gomes in Goa: A Post-Colonial Society Between Cultures.) One can readily hypothesize that had Salazar given Goa independence, India under Nehru would not have invaded Goa. Or better still if Salazar had to opt for a Plebiscite (similar to East Timor), it is likely that majority of the Goan population of then might have voted for an independent Goa. (similar to the Opinion Poll that rejected integration of Goa into the neighboring state of Maharashtra. Incidentally, I was a medical student then in Goa and campaigned on behalf of United Goans Party against Goa’s integration into Maharashtra.) The current statistics and information point to the contrary to your statement. 1: Although Goa is a small enclave encompassing an area of 3,702 km2 (1,429 sq miles), it is rich in mineral resources. Major minerals include iron ore, manganese, ferro-manganese, bauxite and silica sand. Iron and manganese mining were the backbone of Goa’s economy. 2: Fishing, iron exports, industry, and tourism has contributed to the state’s economic well-being. 3: Currently, Goa has the highest per capita income in the whole of India. 4: It has a High Human Development Index, which measures indicators such as health, education, and standard of living. Off course one could attribute the rapid almost “mindboggling” commercial development in Goa to the central government in India, which took advantage of Goa’s western heritage and made it into a hotbed of tourism. However, if left to itself, the development might have been more tempered with better city planning etc. all to the benefit of Goa’s ecology and wellbeing. Anthony Gomes, Professor of Medicine, The Mount Sinai Medical Center, NY. Author of The Sting of Peppercorns On Dec 16, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Needless to say that Nauru has one of the highest obesity rates in the world. Precisely due to the fact that inhabitants do not have to... work. Most small countries that had their independence recently last century are all struggling economically - Africa, Central America, Pacific Ocean, Asia, etc (possibly with the exceptioin of Macau and HK). Only a few of these nations have some decent industries and good sources of income - like Macau has its casinos and HK its historical trade connections. Goa would had fallen on the struggling group if it were to go solo after 1961, it does not have what it takes to be an independent nation. So, my point on independence is that, one has to go beyond the emotional barrier to actually get real and be able to forecast what is in store for the future as an independent, sovereign nation. Working with real figures... and not with just a flag and a national anthem. JP ________________________________ From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of PEDRO MASCARENHAS <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: 15 December 2023 14:30 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets Nauru rich? With income from phosphate mining and a population of 4,000 people, Nauru is the richest island in the world per capita. Most Nauruans don't work and can enjoy the comforts of modern society. There has also been a documented loss of Nauruan traditions like subsistence farming as well as the violations of their rights to their own land and the continued human rights violations that continue at the Nauru detention center.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre>[<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru#cite_note-:14-174> Tuvalu problems : Is Tuvalu a rich or poor country? In addition to traditional agriculture and fishing, Tuvalu also relies heavily on international aid. The country is one of the smallest and poorest nations in the world, with limited natural resources and infrastructure. Marshall Islands need assistance: United States government<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government> assistance is the mainstay of the economy. Under terms of the Amended Compact of Free Association<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_of_Free_Association>, the U.S. is committed to providing US$57.7 million per year in assistance to the Marshall Islands (RMI) through 2013 and then US$62.7 million through 2023, at which time a trust fund, made up of U.S. and RMI contributions, will begin perpetual annual payouts.The United States Army<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army> maintains the Ronald Reagan Ballistic Missile Defense Test Site<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_Test_Site> on Kwajalein<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwajalein> Atoll. Marshallese landowners receive rent for the base. 'Bernardo de Sousa' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> escreveu no dia sexta, 15/12/2023 à(s) 10:45: Here is a list of the 10 smallest countries without any iron ore or big industries that are all independent countries, rich and thriving. Your argument falls completely flat: • Vatican City (0.19 square miles) • Monaco (0.78 square miles) • Nauru (8.1 square miles) • Tuvalu (10 square miles) • San Marino (24 square miles) • Liechtenstein (62 square miles) • Marshall Islands (70 square miles) • Saint Kitts and Nevis (101 square miles) • Maldives (120 square miles) • Malta (122 square miles) > On 13 Dec 2023, at 11:03, Joao Paulo Cota > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > The economic blockade was designed to disrupt the imports from overseas and > from inland India. > Agree that Goa produced manpower for the three military branches, but having > its own military bases, airports and naval quarters alongwith tanks, fighter > jets, warships of all classes, are a total different ballgame. > Goa's iron ore and other small industries would not generate enough GDP to > fund all that plus run the state. > It could never be an independent country. Just too small in size... although > there were valid calls for this due to the unique Goan identity. > Regards, > Joao PauloFrom: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > on behalf of John de Figueiredo > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: 13 December 2023 01:03 > To: > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets > Valmiki Faleiro stated that the economic blockade placed by the Government > of India proved Goa to be perfectly capable of being self-sufficient and he > demonstrated that Goa produced distinguished officers in the army, Air Force, > and navy. So that argument does not seem to be supported by data. All the > pieces of the puzzle were in place but the puzzle was never solved. > John > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 12, 2023, at 7:18 PM, Joao Paulo Cota >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Worth pointing out that Monaco does not have any army, air force or navy. >> Its defence needs are being provided by France. >> Hence the same analogy would mean, India would need to provide that to Goa, >> being its immediate neighbour... realistically, I can't see that happening. >> JP >> >> From: >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> on behalf of John de Figueiredo >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: 12 December 2023 23:09 >> To: >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> >> Subject: Re: [GRN] Pamphlets >> Good points, Frederick. >> The geographical argument does not count either. >> Monaco is of the size of 314 acres, with a population a little over 36,000, >> speaking French, and surrounded all 3 sides by France. The third side is >> along the sea just as Goa. But Monaco is an independent nation. >> Bruto da Costa wanted a plebiscite for the Goans to decide on the future of >> Goa. This plebiscite never took place. >> At any rate, if flowers became concrete, this conversation is irrelevant >> because the Goa we are discussing is no more. >> John >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Dec 12, 2023, at 4:02 PM, fredericknoronha >>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> Something makes me want to disagree with quite a few of the comments made, >>> and conclusions drawn, below: >>> >>> (1) My reading is that Portugal dealt with East Timor in the way it did >>> more due to the turmoil at that time in Portugal itself, the Carnation >>> Revolution, abrupt change in political direction, etc. Open to correction >>> here. >>> >>> (2) About Goa being a "rich basket", economic studies and other accepted >>> analyses suggest otherwise. Salazar could have (rightly) seen a "domino >>> effect" starting in Goa. Something that undercut the plank on which his >>> ideology was based. Plus, in the Portuguese imagination over centuries, Goa >>> meant something rather different. Call this emotional reasons, or whatever >>> you wish. >>> >>> (3) "Indian patience ran out" is a shorthand argument which has, >>> unfortunately, been widely accepted in our perspective on the issue. If you >>> read the trajectory of events as outlined in Valmiki Faleiro's recent book, >>> you might conclude otherwise. >>> >>> (4) 1961 in Goa has to be also viewed in the context of the Cold War. Some >>> studies here have begun looking in that direction. This issue is not only >>> about India and Portugal, let alone Goa. >>> >>> (5) This "France was wise" or "Portugal could have followed France" logic >>> has been put forth repeatedly, and seldom challenged. It is based on an >>> acute misunderstanding of what happened in Pondicherry. For instance, a >>> perusal of the recently-published The Portuguese Presence in India (Notion >>> Press, 2020) by João A de Menezes, p.198-212, could easily make one >>> rethink this argument. This argument has come up a few times in this forum >>> too, and then we end up taking it as accurate. >>> >>> FN >>> >>> On Wednesday 13 December 2023 at 01:58:43 UTC+5:30 eugene.correia wrote: >>> Well, Portugal withdrew from East Timor, as the independence movement was >>> fierce. I don't think Portugal keeping East Timor as one of its colonies >>> would be a financial benefit. Seemingly, East Timor was a "basket case' for >>> Portugal while Goa was a "rich basket". Colonial politics in those times >>> rested on "gains and loses" and Portugal let go off of East Timor but >>> reluctantly held on to Goa. >>> As events proved later on, Indian patience ran out. Knowing well that >>> Salszar would find it difficult to keep Goa in its embrace by engaging >>> India in a war, it was a walk-over as we know it. Goa's freedom did ring a >>> bell in African countries and the Non-Alignment Movement gained momentum >>> and slowly but surely the continent of Africa was free of colonial rule. No >>> self-respecting people like subjugation by a foreign power when the >>> people's consciousness and national pride comes to the fore. >>> What would happen to Goa if it continued to be under Portuguese rule is >>> nobody's guess. France was wise, as it earned respect. Portugal was humbled >>> and disgraced. History is dotted with such examples. >>> >>> Eugene Correia >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to >>> [email protected]<mailto:goa-research-net%[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/ae318b18-d024-4e3a-b903-fc3924830319n%40googlegroups.com. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> [email protected]<mailto:goa-research-net%[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/A3D036AD-7F50-4D20-9DDA-33D3A37D5228%40sbcglobal.net. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Goa-Research-Net" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to >> [email protected]<mailto:goa-research-net%[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161243327818C46710292C1828EA%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > [email protected]<mailto:goa-research-net%[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/FBF8CF0C-708D-4396-B852-74595016F71E%40sbcglobal.net. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to > [email protected]<mailto:goa-research-net%[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/GV2P195MB2161E084AB9E122A0D53F92E828DA%40GV2P195MB2161.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. 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