Firstly, if the group was to be an official channel (which will never
happen) then there is good reason why someone without vested interests
in server hosting should be channeling the discussion back to Valve.
I'll use Mathias as an example. Matthias is very clearly
anti-advertising and believes that communities using such should be
sv_tagged accordingly, if it is allowed at all. I have no doubt that
if Matthias was in a moderating position, he would abuse said position
to surreptitiously advance that agenda irrespective of the official
stance of the collective he is supposed to be representing. I note
that rules do not require communities to use sv_tags for their MOTD
content at this point in time – Yet Matthias clearly believes that
anyone who uses advertising as a revenue model is committing some
great moral evil, thus undermining his ability to work with others.
Secondly, I wasn't aware Ross's response required any further debate
or discussion or that I was required to respond to every post made.
However, since Matthias seems to think that I robbed Ross of a
response, yes, there is a game server token system, obviously; No,
Valve have not been using it to ban servers within Team Fortress 2 and
I suspect that they don't really use it as a banning mechanism in
CS:GO on regular basis aside from the occasional knife plugin related
ban (Ergo: To protect the item economy and the profits associated
thereof) - Though others are better able to comment on the happenings
of GLST in CS:GO servers hence why I initially did not. Perhaps others
on this mailing list could show that same type of restraint
henceforth, Matthias?
Thirdly, there is nothing ironic about my post, perhaps Matthias needs
to revise the definition of the word irony. Moving onto the context in
which he used it, my stance is not as he presented it, but rather my
stance is that A) Valve won't be interested in pedestaling anyone
within the realm of "community" hosting as a source of feedback on
this matter. B) Valve won't be interested in limiting sources of
feedback or what feedback they receive, all feedback is valuable. C)
That any such group will not represent the various views of all
operators and that operators are better off making mature, private and
direct contact with Valve instead of pushing an agenda through a
single channel that may not always be representative of their
community's stance on various matters. Matthias seems to completely
ignore that it is he, via pushing this suggestion of an official,
filtered, channel, that would seek to rob server operators with
minority opinions of a voice – That is an example irony.
And lastly, the reason I don't care about the troll badge that
Matthias is so desperately trying to staple to my forehead is that it
was given to me by someone who doesn't even know Godwin's law – hardly
a respectable individual. For the uninitiated, Matthias, ye who casts
the first Nazi analogy loses the debate and thier credibility.Google
it and bring a more intelligent analogy in future.
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
GSPs have definitively established the meaning of what a "private
server" is and so has Valve in the quickplay menu with "community
servers". I see no need for further debate here. You can use
whatever term you want, but it's ridiculous to say others official
terminology is the wrong one to use - and furthermore, not helping
the discussion.
You still haven't fully understood the "voice concept" I guess.
There is no reason why this group should be moderated by
non-serverops. That is ridiculous. You might as well demand that
the democrats should be represented by a Nazi.
Also, it seems you have completely ignored Powerlord's (Ross)
point, which is introducing tokens to properly identify, report
and remove servers. I also don't care who brought up the slag's
servers. It is neither me, nor Robert saying which community
servers are bad (or rather, how abusive specific servers are to
their players), as you noticed in your enumeration, it is the
representative opinion of SPUF players.
Now where lies the issue? In servers not being properly tagged
(ads, p2w) and banned (fake players, p2w), therefore giving decent
community servers the taint that comes with the baddies they're
not related to. This is what the GSLT token system is for, and
this is what Valve is already using in CSGO.
It is ironic that you are against an organized group that moves
this OT discussion into a constructive and moderated forum so
Valve can hear us, while you are against Valve ignoring groups. So
you're finally right. Valve is not interested in limiting itself
to who or what it listens to. So why not let the server-ops have a
voice as well, among other preexisting groups?
Yes, I am interested in community servers thriving. But I am not
interested in abusive, ad-infested, p2w communities that give
honest and hard-working serverops a bad rep.
Something no one has mentioned before, and as an explanation as to
why some communities apparently (can't really verify what their
ops say, I actually have opposing stats as I mentioned before), is
that the mid-popularity communities die out due to the changes and
their playerbase may or may not mitigate to the few popular
communities that could establish themselves before the quickplay
changes. Thus making it impossible to survive or start a community
regardless of content and management if you aren't in the top 5%.
Last but not least, if you say you're fine with wearing the troll
badge, I think that shows your stance and your cause. I don't see
you being opposing, or constructive. I see you rephrasing and
hiding behind other people's points, and derailing the topic down
to terminologies, saying nothing will work no matter what,
literally laughing about others who try. And for those
well-organized walls of texts, that's a bad yield. I think we got
whatever small point you made, and I believe two sentences would
have sufficed.
On 18.12.2015 22:45, Cats From Above wrote:
Firstly, perhaps the term I meant was actually private server
operator. And yes, whilst it can be interpreted to refer to a
“passworded” server, It can also be used to refer to the nature
of its management - Ergo: Operated by a private entity other than
Valve Valve. The term “community server” is somewhat emotive in
this debate and it makes it sound like to have no “community
servers” is indicative of poor health in the Team Fortress 2
“community” or something of that nature – Something that is not a
given.
Secondly, I find it mildly amusing that both Robert and Matthias
have the chutzpa to go around telling modded server operators how
well their servers are and are not doing – as if the operators
themselves don’t know. A Fearts (DISC-FF) was on here earlier
saying that Quickplay hasn’t negatively affected his modded
servers and in fact since the Quickplay changes they’ve only
gotten more popular. I myself have similar experience in this regard.
Thirdly, I acknowledge the diversity of this group. However, I do
not believe that pedestaling a select few private server
operators as the “voice of all privately run servers” is the
answer. Nor do I think Valve is interested in limiting itself to
who or what it listens to nor would it be interested in having
someone else picking and choosing what it hears. If such a group
were made, it would need to be headed by someone with no vested
interest in privately operated servers – In Vegan parlance this
means someone that isn’t running or involved in the running of a
community.
Fourthly, the routine complaints on this mailing list every time
Valve pushes an update is not community outcry, in my view. Every
individual here who seems to have an issue with Quickplay has a
vested interest in the operation of a privately managed server.
Hence, I suspect that most involvement here is triggered by a
desire to see one’s privately operated server(s) survive as
opposed to any genuine care for the wider Team Fortress 2 community.
Fifthly, SLAG was initially brought up by Robert in one of his
earlier responses. He used it as an example of a popular modded
community that had been significantly hurt by Quickplay, hence my
response referring to SLAG's issues at an administrative level
that are probably doing it more harm than Quickplay is. If
Matthias read Robert’s response, he would have known why this
comment was made.
Sixthly, if putting forward an opposing point of view and
throwing in the occasional ad hominem jibe makes me a troll, then
it is a label I shall wear proudly. Thank you.
Finally, you can bet your money that if I created a SPUF thread
asking “Do you want community servers back in the default
Quickplay pool?” that the overwhelming response will be “No”,
with specific reference to not wanting things like, A)
Advertising B) Fake players C) Pay to win benefits D) Abusive
Admins E) Stupid game mods F) Arbitrary rules etc. – These are
all stereotypes some Quickplay users “look forward to” when they
join a community server and I don’t think Quickplay users more
generally speaking want a bar of it. Valve are fully aware of
this reality, hence the reason for the change they made in the
first place.
Regardless, N-Gon has aptly demonstrated the pointlessness of
this conversation with his off-topic remark
On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
There is no community outcry, because this is the outcry.
You're expecting an outcry from people who are barely able to
adjust their game's settings, let alone disable the motd in
their configs to get rid of annoying ads.
I also don't know why you're bringing up Slag's servers. I've
heard a few stories about him. I know some model designers
who he ripped off, he stole their content without giving two
fucks. It is also not quite white-knighty of a community to
sell unmutes and unbans. I wouldn't pick him as the poster
boy for well-run community servers or better phrased "friendly".
If you're questioning the talent that is left in the modding
community, feel free to ask this question again in the next
two months.
Honestly, I think you're trying to troll on a high level
here. "One of those vegan types", yeah sure. "Funny"
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