I think a non serverop would be great. The personal investments are what drives everyone the way it does I imagine, but a non server op wouldn't need to care about a particular server, just the game itself. I think finding a candidate though would be difficult, unless we put together some input polls and gave it to our respective communities?
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Adam walker <m...@adam-walker.me.uk> wrote: > Actually, that seemed fairly heated on both sides. But using an outside > perspective, e.g. A "non-serverops", as your moderating ground is not a bad > idea. > > Someone without a vested interest and therefore not subject to the bias > that server operators would naturally have would be able to weigh up your > arguments and come to a rational conclusion. You can have a constructive > debate on both sides, if it got to that point, without it being skewed in > favour of one particular side. > > Clearly, if it was a server operator moderating the debate, they would > have a prejudice towards a particular argument and the opposing side may as > well not even raise their point. > > Or am I to believe that the idea of bias limiting in debates is a complete > fallacy in this day and age? > > On 18 Dec 2015, at 23:52, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek < > proph...@sticed.org> wrote: > > Yep, trolling. > Thanks for making it obvious. > > Anyone with an actual constructive interest wants to way in? > > On 19.12.2015 00:47, Cats From Above wrote: > > Firstly, if the group was to be an official channel (which will never > happen) then there is good reason why someone without vested interests in > server hosting should be channeling the discussion back to Valve. I'll use > Mathias as an example. Matthias is very clearly anti-advertising and > believes that communities using such should be sv_tagged accordingly, if it > is allowed at all. I have no doubt that if Matthias was in a moderating > position, he would abuse said position to surreptitiously advance that > agenda irrespective of the official stance of the collective he is supposed > to be representing. I note that rules do not require communities to use > sv_tags for their MOTD content at this point in time – Yet Matthias clearly > believes that anyone who uses advertising as a revenue model is committing > some great moral evil, thus undermining his ability to work with others. > > > > Secondly, I wasn't aware Ross's response required any further debate or > discussion or that I was required to respond to every post made. However, > since Matthias seems to think that I robbed Ross of a response, yes, there > is a game server token system, obviously; No, Valve have not been using it > to ban servers within Team Fortress 2 and I suspect that they don't really > use it as a banning mechanism in CS:GO on regular basis aside from the > occasional knife plugin related ban (Ergo: To protect the item economy and > the profits associated thereof) - Though others are better able to comment > on the happenings of GLST in CS:GO servers hence why I initially did not. > Perhaps others on this mailing list could show that same type of restraint > henceforth, Matthias? > > Thirdly, there is nothing ironic about my post, perhaps Matthias needs to > revise the definition of the word irony. Moving onto the context in which > he used it, my stance is not as he presented it, but rather my stance is > that A) Valve won't be interested in pedestaling anyone within the realm of > "community" hosting as a source of feedback on this matter. B) Valve won't > be interested in limiting sources of feedback or what feedback they > receive, all feedback is valuable. C) That any such group will not > represent the various views of all operators and that operators are better > off making mature, private and direct contact with Valve instead of pushing > an agenda through a single channel that may not always be representative of > their community's stance on various matters. Matthias seems to completely > ignore that it is he, via pushing this suggestion of an official, filtered, > channel, that would seek to rob server operators with minority opinions of > a voice – That is an example irony. > > And lastly, the reason I don't care about the troll badge that Matthias is > so desperately trying to staple to my forehead is that it was given to me > by someone who doesn't even know Godwin's law – hardly a respectable > individual. For the uninitiated, Matthias, ye who casts the first Nazi > analogy loses the debate and thier credibility. Google it and bring a > more intelligent analogy in future. > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < > <proph...@sticed.org>proph...@sticed.org> wrote: > >> GSPs have definitively established the meaning of what a "private server" >> is and so has Valve in the quickplay menu with "community servers". I see >> no need for further debate here. You can use whatever term you want, but >> it's ridiculous to say others official terminology is the wrong one to use >> - and furthermore, not helping the discussion. >> You still haven't fully understood the "voice concept" I guess. There is >> no reason why this group should be moderated by non-serverops. That is >> ridiculous. You might as well demand that the democrats should be >> represented by a Nazi. >> Also, it seems you have completely ignored Powerlord's (Ross) point, >> which is introducing tokens to properly identify, report and remove >> servers. I also don't care who brought up the slag's servers. It is neither >> me, nor Robert saying which community servers are bad (or rather, how >> abusive specific servers are to their players), as you noticed in your >> enumeration, it is the representative opinion of SPUF players. >> Now where lies the issue? In servers not being properly tagged (ads, p2w) >> and banned (fake players, p2w), therefore giving decent community servers >> the taint that comes with the baddies they're not related to. This is what >> the GSLT token system is for, and this is what Valve is already using in >> CSGO. >> It is ironic that you are against an organized group that moves this OT >> discussion into a constructive and moderated forum so Valve can hear us, >> while you are against Valve ignoring groups. So you're finally right. Valve >> is not interested in limiting itself to who or what it listens to. So why >> not let the server-ops have a voice as well, among other preexisting groups? >> Yes, I am interested in community servers thriving. But I am not >> interested in abusive, ad-infested, p2w communities that give honest and >> hard-working serverops a bad rep. >> Something no one has mentioned before, and as an explanation as to why >> some communities apparently (can't really verify what their ops say, I >> actually have opposing stats as I mentioned before), is that the >> mid-popularity communities die out due to the changes and their playerbase >> may or may not mitigate to the few popular communities that could establish >> themselves before the quickplay changes. Thus making it impossible to >> survive or start a community regardless of content and management if you >> aren't in the top 5%. >> >> Last but not least, if you say you're fine with wearing the troll badge, >> I think that shows your stance and your cause. I don't see you being >> opposing, or constructive. I see you rephrasing and hiding behind other >> people's points, and derailing the topic down to terminologies, saying >> nothing will work no matter what, literally laughing about others who try. >> And for those well-organized walls of texts, that's a bad yield. I think we >> got whatever small point you made, and I believe two sentences would have >> sufficed. >> >> >> On 18.12.2015 22:45, Cats From Above wrote: >> >> Firstly, perhaps the term I meant was actually private server operator. >> And yes, whilst it can be interpreted to refer to a “passworded” server, It >> can also be used to refer to the nature of its management - Ergo: Operated >> by a private entity other than Valve Valve. The term “community server” is >> somewhat emotive in this debate and it makes it sound like to have no >> “community servers” is indicative of poor health in the Team Fortress 2 >> “community” or something of that nature – Something that is not a given. >> >> Secondly, I find it mildly amusing that both Robert and Matthias have the >> chutzpa to go around telling modded server operators how well their servers >> are and are not doing – as if the operators themselves don’t know. A Fearts >> (DISC-FF) was on here earlier saying that Quickplay hasn’t negatively >> affected his modded servers and in fact since the Quickplay changes they’ve >> only gotten more popular. I myself have similar experience in this regard. >> >> Thirdly, I acknowledge the diversity of this group. However, I do not >> believe that pedestaling a select few private server operators as the >> “voice of all privately run servers” is the answer. Nor do I think Valve is >> interested in limiting itself to who or what it listens to nor would it be >> interested in having someone else picking and choosing what it hears. If >> such a group were made, it would need to be headed by someone with no >> vested interest in privately operated servers – In Vegan parlance this >> means someone that isn’t running or involved in the running of a community. >> >> Fourthly, the routine complaints on this mailing list every time Valve >> pushes an update is not community outcry, in my view. Every individual here >> who seems to have an issue with Quickplay has a vested interest in the >> operation of a privately managed server. Hence, I suspect that most >> involvement here is triggered by a desire to see one’s privately operated >> server(s) survive as opposed to any genuine care for the wider Team >> Fortress 2 community. >> >> Fifthly, SLAG was initially brought up by Robert in one of his earlier >> responses. He used it as an example of a popular modded community that had >> been significantly hurt by Quickplay, hence my response referring to SLAG's >> issues at an administrative level that are probably doing it more harm than >> Quickplay is. If Matthias read Robert’s response, he would have known why >> this comment was made. >> >> Sixthly, if putting forward an opposing point of view and throwing in the >> occasional ad hominem jibe makes me a troll, then it is a label I shall >> wear proudly. Thank you. >> >> Finally, you can bet your money that if I created a SPUF thread asking >> “Do you want community servers back in the default Quickplay pool?” that >> the overwhelming response will be “No”, with specific reference to not >> wanting things like, A) Advertising B) Fake players C) Pay to win benefits >> D) Abusive Admins E) Stupid game mods F) Arbitrary rules etc. – These are >> all stereotypes some Quickplay users “look forward to” when they join a >> community server and I don’t think Quickplay users more generally speaking >> want a bar of it. Valve are fully aware of this reality, hence the reason >> for the change they made in the first place. >> >> >> Regardless, N-Gon has aptly demonstrated the pointlessness of this >> conversation with his off-topic remark >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < >> proph...@sticed.org> wrote: >> >>> There is no community outcry, because this is the outcry. You're >>> expecting an outcry from people who are barely able to adjust their game's >>> settings, let alone disable the motd in their configs to get rid of >>> annoying ads. >>> I also don't know why you're bringing up Slag's servers. I've heard a >>> few stories about him. I know some model designers who he ripped off, he >>> stole their content without giving two fucks. It is also not quite >>> white-knighty of a community to sell unmutes and unbans. I wouldn't pick >>> him as the poster boy for well-run community servers or better phrased >>> "friendly". >>> If you're questioning the talent that is left in the modding community, >>> feel free to ask this question again in the next two months. >>> Honestly, I think you're trying to troll on a high level here. "One of >>> those vegan types", yeah sure. "Funny" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit:https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit:https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > -- *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson* Web Designer / Artist / Writer Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/
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